A Guild Numbers Question

I have a question for you to ponder.

Would you rather be in a guild that ran 2 ten man raiding teams or 1 twenty-five man raiding team?

Why?

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About Matticus

Matticus is the founder of World of Matticus and Plus Heal. Read more of his columns at WoW Insider. League of Legends player. Caffeine enthusiast.

Comments

  1. LorekeeperGlaci says:

    A 25 man guild, for two reasons.  A) I’ve raided 25 mans all my raiding time in this game and enjoy the fun that comes with having so many (crazy) people in a raid at one time.  The other is that when you get two 10s running, there’s a very real chance that they gravitate towards being the ‘A-team’ and the ‘B-team’ raid, where A is better than B in the eyes of your members.  Suddenly the B team demand to be placed on the A-team raid and people get resentful when they don’t progress as fast and it becomes a drama nightmare that can (and does) tear guilds apart.  I’ve seen it before, so I’ll stick with my 25s.
     
    -@LorekeeperGlaci

  2. gethe88 says:

    As some one who has done both, I prefer 25s. Having a big group like that, to me, makes it feel that much more epic, and the moment when we get that first kill and vent goes crazy, makes it that much sweeter.

  3. MelfinatheBlue says:

    I prefer 2 10s, because I prefer the feel of 10s. To me a ten man’s like being in my own superteam (aka the Avengers). But there is always the A team/B team problem to conquer. 
     
    Plus, as my raid leader would say, 10 mans mean I only have to wrangle 9 of you insane people 🙂

  4. A single 25, for sure. First, I just like 25s better. Second, I agree with the other commenters that two 10s do tend to separate into an A and a B team. Multiple teams are harder to balance. I also find that there’s not as much camaraderie in the guild when it’s split into multiple teams. I’m less likely to get to know the people that aren’t on my team. I was once in a guild that ran 4 or 5 10-mans. What a nightmare.

  5. 10 man.  I’ve done them all – 40 man, 25 man, 10-man strict – the most fun, challenging, team building. socially perfect for me was the 10-man strict.  I like the closeness of the smaller group of people.  That one was the hardest to take when it broke down.

  6. I prefer 10 man. I love the camaraderie and the closeness you build together. In a 25 man, just like in the old 40 mans, I feel you’re just in a sea of people and they are there for their own reasons and not so much the group. I like the strategizing aspect of the 10 man as well. The accomplishment of the boss defeat is so much sweeter when you’re in a smaller tight knit group where everyone has to work for it, and does.

  7. Loriest says:

    I prefer 25 man raiding, but the the game is heading to 10 man raiding. In 25m you can cover up for poor play, in 10m you can’t. But trying to herd 25 people anymore is being difficult especially on servers like mine (Medivh)

  8. Drewbob says:

    As an older person with job and family, multiple 10 man raids are preferable due to greater scheduling flexibility. This pretty much trumps all other considerations for me, since it boils down to whether I can even play. 🙂

  9. Two 10 mans. I prefer the format (tighter comraderie, sense of greater personal responsibility in the outcome) by a large margin.

  10. Multiple ten-mans in one guild are doomed to cause drama, unless those raids happen on different schedules… and even then, it’s an even bet you’ll get A/B team drama anyway,

  11. LadyAnjelle says:

    Personally, I will stick with 25m as long as possible. I’ve done 10s, but I always find myself unsatisfied and returning to 25s. I never got that adrenaline rush from a kill on 10 like I did on 25. Also, as many others have mentioned.. the drama of “competing” 10s is NOT worth it. I did the drama thing in junior high. No matter how hard you try, the multiple 10s will always have at least some involved that will feel like it is a competition.. which team is better or worse. You end up with cliques within the teams dividing the guild. It just isn’t a happy place. Also, a word of warning.. If this is in relation to attendance/recruiting and you are considering downsizing from a 25 to 10s.. Don’t! Every time I have witnessed this, guilds end up losing people as the 25 lovers leave. 

  12. Having semi recently been in a guild that shifted from a 25 man setting down to a 2 10 man team setting, I can honestly say they both have their pros and cons.
     
    25 man
    Pros: Can easily include (nearly) everyone in the guild. Has a more “epic brawl” sort of feel; I mean, can 10 lone heroes plus a few NPCs really take on the likes of Deathwing or Ragnaros? Better chances (potentially) at loot, depending on RNG and member turnover/loot system. Buffing is a non-issue.
     
    Cons: Often has a higher turn over rate, thus creating a need to constantly recruit to keep an active bench. Slower to set up, slower to recover from wipes, often a bit slower to progress with due to being able to see “who messed up” due to a less intimate setting.
     
     
    2 10 mans
    Pros: Faster progression, not necessarily because of any difficulty fluctuations between the two sizes (save for on a few choice encounters), but simply because it is easier to quickly wipe and pull again with less people. A more intimate setting, so it’s much easier to tell what went amiss on a given pull. A greater sense of “family”, which promotes a better synergy with the group (though this can also potentially cause troubles and temper flares, but such outbreaks are often easier to take care of with a smaller setting).
     
    Cons: It is incredibly difficult for one guild to feed the recruitment needs of 2 10 mans. Can often be a lot more tedious recruiting for 2 10 man teams than a 25 since you must often be thinking of which buffs are needed to help ease the pressure of progressing. While 2 teams can create friendly competition, which often can help propel general progression forward, it often causes a rift between the two teams if one team progresses more quickly than the other. Often ends up feeling like two different guilds under one tag; resentment may rear its ugly head.
     
    Since January or so I’ve seen my guild go from being one of the last remaining 25 man guilds on the server to a 2 10 man team setting, and now we’re down to a single 10 man raid group due to issues with burnt out/not present officers in the less progressed team and the inability to scrape together enough recruits for both raid teams due to a lower recruitment pool. When we dropped to 2 10 mans, we probably had about 15-20 solid players from the original 25 man. When one of our cores dissipated, the group I was in suddenly found itself with a bench of 5 players. Having that large of a bench with a 10 man group makes it impossible to keep everyone happy: veteran members of the group don’t want to sit for new comers, new people don’t want to be permi-benched. It’s a no win situation.
     
    WTB flexible raid sizes – the more you bring, the more difficult the encounter.

  13. Ace3425 says:

    So on this Topic Matt. There are many diffrent opinons I am sure so here is mine.
    First I will explain both side.
    25 man raiding.With 25 man raiding it takes more communicaton,Effort and Trust.
    Some fights you have depend on 24 other people to do there job instead of 9 others in 10 man. With a big roster you have to find ways to close the learning curve. Which usuualy is quite big since you are taking on 25 man. And with so many people to depend on it can be rough. But in the end I feel 25 mans are harder but completion of 25 man content I still feel is more relevant then 10 man. You down 10 man gg. But 25 man its another level of play style. Its harder and it takes more.
     
    2 10 mans on the other hand have there pros and cons too.
    First most likely you will see more progression. Its easier to find out when someone messes up and what not. And most strategys are much easier with only 10 people. The communciaton still has to be there but not as much. You have team A and team B. I was an officer in this type of guild and it was very successful. It does drive healthy competion with in the guild. But as below it can drive jealousy and what not between the groups. Which usuualy can be setteled by meetings and time for both groups too come together we did a monthly meeting to make sure we were all on the same page. But it also allows you too share best pracitces and what helps each group achieve kills. Group A can give Group B tips and the other way around. And it much easier to manage and raid dates some times are easy to manage because you only need to accomodate those 10 people in your squad instead of the whole 25.
     
     
    I have much more on this topic and will go in detail mabey in mumble and post another topic on it.
     
    But I really loved running 2 10 mans when I was an officer. But I enjoy 25 mans much better. It is more headaches and as each xpac comes gets tougher. I still really enjoy being the best and downing content in a harder more challenging fashion. Compared to 10 mans I will take 25 man because the way I feel inside when we do achieve a kill you share it on a bigger stage and with more people. the end game stuff is better and I feel better because I know I did this and that at a higher level in my opinion.

  14. mataoka says:

    No hesitation – 2 ten-man teams, and possibly a third for alts. Seems that allows more room for leadership and play flexibility.

    •  @mataoka I’d be interested to see how you’d expand on this idea.  Are you saying 3×10 allows you to have 3 raid leaders and thus a better situation?

  15. Sarriss says:

    25 man for sure, it just has a more epic feel. I agree with Saz on this, you cant ever stop recruiting tho, burnout and turnover are very high for sometimes frustrating progression. 2 x 10 mans opens you up to a situation of drama when one group is more progressed than the other and everyone wants to be in the pro group. 
     
    My guild is the last real 25 man on our server, all of our progression kills (bar a few early ones at the start of Cata due to slow levellers) have been on 25 and we are 3/8HC. Lately, mostly due to D3, we are cutting down to 10s due to numbers, but it just isnt the same. 
     
    The top guild on our server recently imploded due to the two 10 man jealousy scenario and it was really sad, they had been in the top 3 progression-wise since TBC. 🙁
     
    In the end, I think a lot depends on your guild policies, do you raid stack, do you have backups for all classes, are well-geared alts acceptable as fill-ins, are you going all-out for progression or is it casual progression. All these things weigh in when deciding to down-size or not, and the decision is rarely clearcut.

    • In my experience it’s better to run a single raid team, be it 10 or 25, than try to split it up into 2 teams.  2 teams generally create an A team and a B team environment. 
       
      If you care at all about progression you will likely stack Team A with your best raiders meaning the B team have to make do with whatever is left, because if we’re honest there are generally only 15 odd really excellent players in a 25 man raid, the rest range from good to average, and Team B may make do for a while but when they fall behind the progression of the other team they lose interest and you’ll end up stuck as a single 10 man guild. 
       
      The only way to try to counter it is to ensure proper balance of your good players to cover the weaker ones but that also risks hampering your overall progression because while it may help Team B keep up, it’s only because Team A isn’t going as fast. 

    • xNikalia says:

      Exactly this.
       
      My last guild did two 10 mans, my current guild does one 25 man. My opinion is exactly on the same note as Zim’s.

  16. Our guild actually fields 3 – 10 man teams. I am currently the raid officer and it has been my policies so far, but what has kept us in this format so long is that our guild currently has 7 rogues working on their legendary daggers so we needed the space.

    •  @Virsica SEVEN Rogues? 

    •  @Virsica Will you repeat this every tier? History shows that on average 30% of all loot leaves a guild from tier to tier, much less expac to expac. Is it worth it to the other 23 raiders to follow this format just for the rogues? I presume the scenario is just being over-simplified for space.

  17. Well, I’m in a guild that ran 4 ten mans at a time during this X-pac, and the only reason they didn’t run a couple more was lack of healers. I think there’s been interest in a 25 man lately, but not being part of the raiding scene in my guild, I don’t really keep up with it. See, we’re not required to raid, just to exist and have fun. And no one in our guild is going to kick a senior officer if she doesn’t feel like raiding XD.

  18. Two 10s that result from the dissolution of a 25 are a different beast from 2 10s that grow naturally out of a social environment.  The former has a much greater potential for volatility, and really requires the right personalities to work.
     
    [i]WTB flexible raid sizes – the more you bring, the more difficult the encounter.[/i]
     
    Careful what you wish for.  🙂  This is a potential can of worms.

  19. Razencane says:

    Just like to say Our guild ( I’m GM ) has 6 10 man teams We had to increase since our guild grew to 545 ppl It’s an issue of scedules three groups run around 7pm and the other 3 run at 11pm and all on different days. It’s a lot to manage but good for keeping everyone up to date on content and flexibility to fill in if needed for another group , lockouts taken into consideration. We could do 25 man but not consistently 🙂 razencane

    •  @Razencane 
      Without sounding snarky, I’d have to ask what exactly binds you as a guild then? Are you on a small server where your guild is the only game in town and thereby the best way to find raiders?  On a high pop server, I can’t imagine why I’d stay as just 1/60th of the raid team when I could go elsewhere and be a stronger part of the team.

  20. I raided 10 man in up to 6/8 hc and 25 for the rest as the 10 man guild was disbanded because of attendance issues.  I can only say that 25 man just feels better and if your guild has competent leaders, they will keep recruiting while progressing.   As for two 10 man teams, it’s a drama bomb waiting to happen as 1 team will get better progress, etc.  
     
    On a side note, having your post shorter than the advertisement on a blog is just bad.  Shame on you.

  21. 25’s are where the real raiding happens.  Yes, we’ve proven that you can take the top 10 players in a guild and down progression content quite easily (sometimes even when they were playing alts/undergeared), but the fight is not the same and I always feel like it’s a consolation accomplishment. 
     
    In BC, I was raider leader for 1 of the 3 10-mans in a guild, but we only ran 3×10 because the raiders we had all had different schedules, so we had to raid different days to accommodate.  Even so, after a few weeks, when my raid was killing Prince repeatedly and the others were stuck on Curator, a number of people suddenly had their schedules clear up so they could raid on my days and not the others.  Then whoever didn’t get in on my run basically signed-out for the week because they believed the other groups couldn’t accomplish content. 
     
    The only time I’ve seen multiple 10-mans work was when we were in ToC and could run 25’s & 10’s in the same week, and we’d farm trinkets on both, splitting up after the 25-man clear and racing each group.
     
    At the risk of opening a bigger can of worms, separate but equal never really exists.

  22. Razensgrace says:

    No offense taken. Our guild consists of very casual and laid back raiders. We give our 85’s a chance to get their feet wet within the guild rather than having to pug outside because they may not be the leet to make the more successful teams And as such we teach raid awareness and have precepters who will then work with individuals needing help with dps and charecter development to become better raiders while still getting to understand the fights and put new skills and techniques into practice where it counts. We find the overall results create a closer bond with guild as a whole without the pressure to be in the top spots. As I’ve said at the start. We’re big yes but we’re casual and try keeping everyone active and learning. Hence 6 raid groups. We’re not slouches we’re at 34 in realm progress May sound shabby to some but we’re proud of our accomplishments. If ppl want to be hard core we encourage them and assist them as much as possible and get them in touch with those guilds where we can. It’s about player satisfaction and comfort zones 🙂 and as a thought to ponder… Keeping 550 players involved (we went up again lol) is more exciting and brings out the best in them instead of having only a handfull of super raiders which may make others in the guild feel left out of oportunities and less important to the guild in general.

  23. HRayketh says:

    It really depends on your guild. In my old guild we had 2 10s and it very much turned into the “A team, B team” issue others are describing. However in my current guild we run 2 10s that stayed almost neck and neck on progression all the way up through H Madness. 
     
    2 10s gives you the flexibility to use people who are dedicated enough and have the time to run extra nights. We do 2 nights a week per group, and a couple weeks where we didn’t have our full team for whatever reason someone from the other team would step on an alt. Obviously, this again depends on your guild and if you have people willing to put in the extra effort for that. Our GM and one of our Raid Leaders did 4 nights a week for a couple weeks straight to keep the groups at the same point in progression.
     
    Also, personally, I hate  25mans. I like the personal accountability of 10mans and knowing the strengths and weaknesses of everyone in my raid group. I have done 25mans and they’re just not for me (my computer isn’t a big fan of them either). I take extreme offense to people who claim 25 is the only “real” raiding. Having done normals and heroics of both kind in Dragon Soul some fights are easier on 10 man (H Ultraxion for example) and some are easier on 25 man (H Hagara). 

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