This is a guest post from We Fly Spitfires.
Tanks and healers are the most important classes for any group. Tanks set the pace of the group, the flow of experience and man the vanguard as they lead the team into battle. Healers mend the broken bones of their companions and keep the tanks a live – without the healers there could be no tanks and there could be no group. These are the two most important classes that exist in any MMORPG. But the DPS? They’re just meat in the room.
Look at it in terms of supply and demand and stress and responsibility. Tanks and healers are in consistent short supply whereas DPS are a dime a dozen. And there’s a reason for that. Tanking isn’t easy and it comes with a lot of pressure and responsibility. Do it right and the group will sing your praises for days to come yet do it badly and you’re on the receiving end of every criticism and jibe. Healing is much the same and also comes with it’s own set of stresses and strains. If the tank dies who gets the blame? Not the DPS classes that didn’t burn the mob down fast enough but the healer who didn’t heal well enough. They carry the heart and soul of the party on their shoulders and all of the difficulties that come with that.
And raiding? That’s even more stressful. Not only do we even already acknowledge the importance of tanks and healers in this situation. We have Main Tanks and even Main Healers but who’s ever heard of a Main DPS before? There’s a huge amount of pressure to do these jobs right. Sub-par DPS can join a raid (even if it’s not desirable) but sub-par tanks cannot tank one and poor healers cannot heal one.
All of this stands to reason that tanks and healers should get bigger rewards than anyone else. I mean, it’s in our culture to reward those that do the most and work the hardest, right? Call it a Tank or Healer Bonus, and a well deserved one at that. They are more important and necessary than anyone else, rarer to find, and they’re jobs are a lot tougher and far more stressful. They’re like the mommas and papas of any group, bringing the necessary order and structure. Without a tank there is no group, without a healer there is no group. DPS can just be picked up randomly as required.
I’ve got nothing against DPS. It’s fun and there’s nothing wrong with that but they simply don’t deserve the equality of rewards. Tanks and healer should get a little something extra on the side (maybe a nice ‘Thank You Drop’ from the boss mobs they fell) because they have the hardest and most demanding jobs and are traditionally the slowest to level up (unless you turn them into DPS). They require the most effort and who can argue that as a result they should get the biggest rewards?
Do you agree or disagree? Why or why not?
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[...] Whilst parusing teh intarwebz this morning, I came across a post in a snark community (no, I’m not snarky, not at all… ) I frequently post in about ‘DPS being a dime a dozen’ and that ‘Healers and Tanks deserve loot drops more than DPS.’ What made this worst, perhaps, is that this was guest posted over at World of Matticus. [...]
[...] last but yesterday Matt over at World of Matticus kindly posted a guest article of mine entitled “Tanks And Healers Should Get The Biggest Rewards” (note to self: remember to phrase articles as questions instead of statements in order to lessen [...]
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[...] guest post by Gordon of We Fly Spitfires over at World of Matticus that raised a pretty interesting discussion. The post makes the very blunt statement of believing that Tanks and Healers deserve better rewards [...]
[...] latest post to stir up controversy is a guest post on World of Matticus by Gordon of We Fly Spitfires. In the post Gordon argues that tanks and healers should be given [...]
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Have to disagree n principal, but agree with the spirit of your post. Every place in a run should be filled with a competent player with appropriate gear. Giving extra reward to a healer or tank will not change the dps community.
The best dps I’ve met are people who have also played the other roles, and if you find a player who is truly brilliant – my guess is that they have spent the time to study each role and their interaction.
I don’t know what to do to raise the performance bar for dps; gear checks, and dungeon restrictions have only made a small dent in the sub-par performance.
.-= Typhoonandrew´s last blog ..Quick noob move =-.
Healers and Tanks are hands down the heavy lifters of any instance/raid.
DPS can be directly tied to the healers mana. The faster the DPS can down a mob/boss the less efficient a healer can be.
.-= Skonged´s last blog ..2010 here we go again =-.
Not having to roll against two (heroics) or four (ten mans) other people is the reward for tank and heals.
Speaking as a Tank main and healer alt here.
While the Tanks may be the skeleton structure, and the Healers the sinews & ligaments, it’s not done till we have the DPS, the muscle of the group.
I have two comments of note, the DPS is a dime a dozen is very, very true, however a Great dps is a toonie in a trashbin(no offense intended). In saying, you cannot truly build a successful guild while your dps remains subpar, even with the greatest tanks, your not going to burn through, Festergut for ex, with just phat tank deeps, despite the buff.
Though I don’t agree with the idea of an extra reward, I do say that tank loot, needs to drop more often than it does. With healers its a bit harder to say, especially in cloth wearers case because well-optimized Cloth dps gear is usually very similar to well-optimized healer gear. I realize dps outnumber tanks, so in terms of gear, you need more dps gear to drop, but in the beginning of new content, you generally want your tanks to get the better gear first, to ease into the fights a bit more and create a larger buffer zone for healers. The issue also arises when your tanks try to obtain either a) multiple sets or b) best in slot items. It simply doesn’t drop often enough, though we must consider luck as a factor. What I would propose is a system that lets you select what drops you want with some sort of guild vote(give future changes in Cata, it could be possible). You would select whether you want loot to be completely random or favor, lets say, plate or tank loot. Your average drops per instance would not change, but your % chance to get tank loot would be boosted by, lets say, 15-25% from a base of lets say, 5% and scale. I’d prefer an idea that increases the chance to get tank loot to drop rather than a flat piece of bonus loot. Incorporating a similar idea to mine above for healers would be much more difficult.
So, on the base concept, I must disagree, however, I agree in the sense that tanks need a better drop chance for their loot and healers need something to separate their loot from dps loot(mostly applies to cloth), something akin to hit, but doesn’t cap and become a terrible stat too easily.
Thanks for all of the great feedback and comments. I’ve really enjoyed reading them and hope you all liked the post.
It’s been very interesting to hear the DPSers feedback and how they feel it’s a dfficult and valued job. I guess I can’t argue with that so I won’t try
A good player is a good player is a good player, regardless of their class and no doubt valued in groups anywhere, anytime.
However, I stick by the spirit of the post and the underlying theme that tanking and healing is more stressful and demanding than DPSing. I think there’s a good argument and solid reasoning for rewarding that (and maybe encourging it more in order to decrease the disproportionate DPSers vs tanks & healers). Certainly in the grouping and raiding that I’ve done, both in WoW and other games, is that I’ve always felt a lot less pressured when I DPS compared to the other two roles.
Anyway, maybe I’ve just played stressful tanks for too long
Of course, I really liked the suggestion that maybe rewards should be given out depending on skill rather than anything else! That would definitely be the most ‘fair’.
P.S. Thanks again for posting my guest article, Matt!
.-= We Fly Spitfires´s last blog ..Husband Picks Wife Over Orc; WoW More Addictive Than Cocaine =-.
I agree that tanks and healers should get more rewards for what we do. But here’s the thing: we already do.
In heroics, with the new LFG system you get an instant queue if you are a tank or a healer. If you are a tank, you get instant queue for yourself and any DPS you bring along (on my server I have seen the rise of DPS paying tanks to queue with them).
In raids, as long as you are competent, you have a guaranteed raid spot. Healing spots are somewhat competitive in progression raiding, but not nearly as competitive as DPS spots. I assume if you’re healing raids it’s because you like healing raids, so you already have the reward of getting to raid. If you’re raiding, you have more chances for gear, and if you are never sat, you earn more DKP or have a chance to /roll more often.
I’d turn this around and actually say that it’s harmful to reward healers with more gear. Sorry about the plug, but it seems relevant. I wrote a post a while ago called: Why Raiding Healers Get Geared First, and Why This is a Bad Thing.
http://dys-morphia.livejournal.com/45526.html
(And for the record I am a raiding healer with my offpsec for tanking heroics).
.-= Dysmorphia´s last blog ..All That Aside =-.
When I first read this, I was inclined to agree wholeheartedly. But the more I think about it, the more I believe that every role in this game is critical to any kind of success.
Here’s how I see it. How many times have you been in a group where the only reason you made it through whatever it is you were doing, was cause of a great tank, or great healer? I’m sure most everyone here can name quite a few, probably right off the bat. Now, what about the flip side of that, when both tank and healer are horribly sub-par, but the group still pulls through due to great DPS. I’m not talking just pulling huge DPS numbers type great DPS, I’m talking the DPS who knows how to burn a boss, while still letting the tank take the hits, isn’t a burden on the healers, and without making people feel like crap about it?
Point I’m trying to get at is your role in a group/raid shouldn’t be rewarded, because there are good and bad people of each role. So why reward the bad with the good? I firmly believe that Skill is a more important item to judge and reward than just role alone. If it were possible to reward skilled players for doing skilled things, then I would support it 110%, but since I know it’s not possible, keep the candy away from everyone. Those who are skilled should take their own rewards in knowing that without them, some groups would go no where.
-Sadysm of Flash of Sadysm
.-= Sadysm´s last blog ..When tanks say something is wrong… =-.
As a healer I already feel like get greater rewards. My contributions are viewed, not just as important, but as crucial. When an encounter is cleared, a greater share of the glory is mine. I’m rolling against less people for gear – some gear is defined as being “for healers”. I never wait more than a few minutes in the LFG queue.
Are there people who, for whatever reason, don’t celebrate their tanks and healers as they should? Never bothers me, since I’m the one who decides whether they live or die. What need have I for their respect?
I have to disagree with Anub HM is a dps fight. I must say a lot of weight is carried by healers.
Because the last 30% is not about just to heal your heart out. It’s about topping the tanks up, and leave the rest at 10%. Plus there will be 2 or 3 people with PC debuff which needs to be topped again. It’s not just simply OMFG faceroll shit my keyboard. It’s about constant twist of to heal, or not to heal.
DPS on the other side, has only one mindset. To DPS the fuck out of everything on their face at 30%.
It is very true that there are dime a dozon dps out there. but the really good dps are hard to find.
A raid team is a team. Pretty much everyone has a contribution. It can vary from fight to fight. There are fights where the MT’s skill and/or gearing can make or break it. MT is the best job in the raid and the most thankless.
Going beyond the MT, I have to agree that tanks and healers have the worst risk versus reward. It *is* more stressful. There are many more times in a raid that “blame” is attached to a tank or healer’s miscues. I am so glad I was never a flame tank on Illidan (I was a healer in BT, though, and that was nearly as brutal *cough* Illidari Council *cough*).
@Darthregis – yes, H:25 Anub’arak is a DPS race. But, the healers need to keep a series Penetrating Cold recipients up for multiple minutes in typical first kill phase 3. For each PC cycle they have approximately three seconds to react. I believe healing is the primary point of failure in most wipes (add failures being a close second, but once you get this down.. the healers will make or break you).
Although my point sort of proves my original statement: you can’t beat top content without the entire raid doing their job.
Having played Melee DPS (Unholy Death Knight), Caster DPS (Warlock), Ranged DPS (Hunter), Tank and Healer (mah dr00d!) I can honestly say that I heartily disagree with the OP. DPS is NOT meat in the room. Case in point: DPS that doesn’t switch to Bone Spikes on Lord Marrowgar will kill your Healers and wipe the Raid.
My Hunter will push anywhere from 5K-7K in Raids on a consistent basis and I’ve peaked at 14K before, but there aren’t that many other Hunters out there that I know that can do that on as consistent a basis. Yes, talking about my DPS is like epeen waving to most, and many will say that it’s spam DPS, but people that have never played one won’t understand it. There are a LOT of mechanics that go into playing a Hunter, and despite what some feel, it’s not all “plant and plunk” when it comes to Hunter DPS. There is a shot rotation that HAS to be followed to maximize your DPS and there is also pet management to consider. Many Healers I know remove pets from Clique or HealBot so as to reduce clutter and make their lives easier, leaving the Hunter to heal his own pet. Aggro management is a constant concern, so ensuring that I don’t break Aggro on the tank, or pull an Add requires constant management of Misdirect, Feign Death and pet talents as well. Getting your pet out of Locust Swarm or Void Zones is vital to Hunter DPS, especially with Ferocity pets when they will do 30% of your overall DPS. Hunter shot rotation is important as well. Break that and have to opo a cooldown? Kiss your DPS goodbye. There are certain times in your rotation where you can move, but certain points where you don’t want to. High movement fights will hurt Hunter DPS the most but that doesn’t mean we are meat in the room, it just means that we may not be suited for that fight.
.-= Dreddnought´s last blog ..Selecting What You Run, or “I would but…” syndrome. =-.
My main is a healer, and no. Please, no. We don’t need any more of this attitude. Any group needs tanks, healers and dps.
We already have the biggest reward, and that is that we don’t have to wait 20 min to queue into a heroic, and that you can get into almost any guild you want to.
In an idealistic way, I would tend to agree.
In a world weary, realistic way, I’d have to disagree.
Some people argue “This is the path you’ve chosen,” disregarding the fact that the only information you have to base your choice off of in the early game is 5 man healing which is an entirely different feeling (for me, as a healer) than an actual raid environment. I didn’t choose Healing a Raid as my path, I chose Healing my Friends as my path.
It’s a great deal more stressful, and not particularly rewarding, when we down a boss by barely managing to beat an enrage timer. Why? Because it wasn’t my fight. It was a fight for the DPS and there was absolutely nothing I could do to help contribute to the success (was I DoTing? Sure. Was it enough to matter? Probably not). I helped heal – that was “the path I’d chosen,” a path that is required in order for the DPS to show that enrage timer who’s really in charge around here. The enrage timer exists as the sole pressure for the DPS – because staying out of the fire isn’t a pressure for them. Really, it’s not. Neither is not aggroing the adds (or boss) – that’s pressure on the tanks.
Every role is important, but the stresses involved are completely different between them. While it might be nice for there to be some sort of extra little reward for healers or tanks, I agree that it would simply encourage the creation, leveling and playing of fail-healers and fail-tanks who imagine that they can get by with the same lackadaisical behavior they were able to employ as DPS.
It’s just one of those things, I guess. I love my DPS who can stay out of the fire – they get Power Infusion and Bubbles and lots of my love.
“Good” DPS doesn’t even come down to damage per second – it comes down to significantly more than that. But we still have epeen waving DPS posting meters.
I hear pretty regularly from DPS that they consider Healing or Tanking to be boring. The higher stress roles in the raid are BORING to them. Apparently there is no excitement in saving your raid members from themselves. What’s exciting to them? Meters! YAY METERS!
If it’s boring, you’re doing it wrong.
(when I’m doing it wrong, I play my baby lock and get reminded exactly why I enjoy healing)
Watch how fast I drop group if, as DPS, I’m treated as nothing more than “meat in the room”. I have far better things to do with my time than put up with diva tanks and healers, like, say, categorize my collection of navel lint by year, color, and texture.
As somebody said upthread, your “extra reward” for being a competent tank or healer is the job security inherent in those high-demand roles. If you find that insufficient, then by all means continue to condescend at your DPS until they invite you to sod off, and enjoy raids full of fail as you struggle to beat frenzy timers and what have you.
While I agree in 5 man’s dps are just meat in the room. I have, on several occasions finished off bosses with myself healing the tank because of stupid dps (Utgarde Pinnacle boss with the whirlwind), (Nexus boss with a whirlwind), (Halls of Stone the boss that stones you – like in Gruuls).
However only extremely overgeared player’s could duo a raid boss, so sadly the pew pew meat is kinda necessary on raiding progression.
DPS aren’t meat in the room. They’re pixels!
OMG, and so are the tank and healer!
We’re all going to die!!!!
As far as rewards go:
Guilds already choose how to reward their players on what they think are needed for the fight. So…done that, right? If that awesome sp necklace is best given to a healer, the guild can do it. If they’d rather give it to caster DPS, they do. Duh! So, rewards taken care of at raid level.
For PUGs, healers and tanks already have an easier time queing than DPS. Now maybe, maybe, maybe it’s worth adding an incentive (extra badge per run? 10 g? Who knows?) for those who sign up as tanks or healers to get them to show up and not just use a DPS spec. But arguably the que time is the primary “incentive” towards being a tank or healer AND a change that would convince tanks and healers to que for PUGs would be good for everyone.
Unless it’s like it is on most servers where the timer alone is enough to convince people who don’t know how to heal or tank to que as healers or tanks in order to avoid the que…in which case an added incentive will just make the problem worse.
Yay?
I disagree, but with qualifications.
I think the balance changes at different levels of content (group size), and I also think there is more to this question than ‘if the group has a poor ___, the group fails.’
When 5 mans are the progression content (such as during the beginning of the expansion, or when the new ICC 5 mans are released, healers and tanks have to have great gear and be at the top of their game in order to keep DPS and themselves alive through unfamiliar and difficult encounters. Once players become more familiar with them and get better gear, a good healer or tank can carry a poor group through these instances.
10 mans put the pressure on the healers, perhaps even a little bit more than the tank. There is a lot of damage and a lot of targets, but only so many GCDs spread around the healing team to keep up. You have to choose your spells right, especially when its progression. Tank responsibilities are less strenuous than in 5 mans, unless it is a specific fight with a lot of adds or a difficult tank mechanic (by which I do not mean taunt switching) an average skilled tank can get by in most 10 man encounters (barring the add fights and tank skill checks, like deathwhisper), while healer’s ability to get a heal in the right spot at the right time is as much if not more important than actually having amazing gear. I’ve had many 10 man healers who just didn’t cut it when I know their gear is sufficient. It seems sometimes you have it or you don’t, gear notwithstanding.
Finally, in 25 mans, the stress on the tank adds “omgwtf that guy hits HARD” to “pick those adds up NOW”. Half the encounter for the tank is getting the right gear so he can stand up in front of the boss until it dies. Healing 25s doesn’t put quite as much pressure on healers as 10 mans do. There is less focus on individual performance and more opportunities for specialization in healing roles.
I’ve left out DPS, because I feel they fit on a different continuum. The job of healers and tanks align – they both keep people alive. The job of DPS is to actually kill the bad guys. There is a certain amount of time that healers and tanks can succeed at keeping the raid alive – even on the easiest encounter, if all the DPS go afk, the raid will die. Eventually. Therefore, the abilities of DPS *do* have bearing on the success of the group. Sometimes, this is explicit, such as adds that need to die or tight enrage timers. Other times, it is just as important that they show situational awareness and mastery of all their class abilities, such as on Deathbringer Saurfang. In 5 mans, it is very hard for DPS to hold back a group with poor performance, but that is because the content is so easy that the tank and healer could probably complete the content on their own; DPS just make it go faster. However, whenever the content becomes difficult for the healer/tank, then good DPS is essential to making the healer/tank’s job easier by reducing the amount of mistakes. In other words, if the fight lasts 6 min, that’s 6 min in which the healer/tank has a chance to make a mistake and die. If the fight lasts 10 min, thats 4 more min where the healer/tank has a chance to slip up (DPS also fall into this slipup category – 4 more min is 4 more min for DPS to forget to move out of fire and other raiding sins we’ve all come to love). The quicker the encounter goes down, the less likely bad RNG will gib you or a player will make a mistake because there is less time to do so. Healing and Tanking make completing the encounter *possible,* but good DPS increase the chance of the encounter *actually being completed*.
So, for rewards? Well, yes, good tanks and healers should receive good rewards. However, good DPS are just as important, and so they should receive similar rewards. This is already the case – good tanks, healers, and DPS get invited back and improve their gear, while players who don’t work on improving their play just don’t get to see progression raids that often.
Blizzard has definitely leveled the playing field: if you manage to collect all the badge gear, and nothing but badge gear, from triumph badges on down, you will be able to perform in at least 10 man ICC, if not 25 man. As long as you enchant your gear and learn your class and spec, your abilities will shine through, no matter what your role.
And sure, its your 15 dollars, however, the moment you step into a group, there’s 4/9/24 players who are all expecting you to know what you’re doing so that you don’t waste their 15 dollars.
While i disagree with the post, and do agree with that the DPS, the Tanks, and the healers are all important in a successful raid, it seems all to often that the tanks or healers go without recognition in their roles in an encounter. I play all three roles, (pally, hunter, shaman) and it discourages me to see that after we down a boss, that the DPS receive much of the credit for beating said enrage timer.
The only thing i would like as a reward as a tank and healer is the simple recognition that we are contributing, we may not be as flash or as easily noticable but try doing a Anub fight with healers that keep everyone topped up in Phase three, or go into Marrowgar where we don’t heal you when you take that little fire damage before you move. Just please DPS there might be more of us, if you just realized that it’s not all your credit that the boss went down, it never would of went down if i didn’t top you back off when you stood in that fire a second to long.
Why do tanks and healers need or want better rewards? Would they be better gear? Higher ilvl than the raid? Purely fluff items like mini-pets?
The only reason I can see giving tanks/healers better rewards is to entice more people to tank or heal. However, people who 1) are GOOD tanks and healers, and 2) keep the job over a long period of time actually like doing it now… they’re already tanking and healing, and giving them another bit of pixel loot for their bags isn’t going to change that.
You may see an influx of tanks and healers over the short term with such an idea, but ultimately, with the added benefits (better loot) but for the long-term, having an awesomely geared tank or healer that they don’t enjoy playing will make them switch back.
I think tanks and healers should get at least one drop per bosskill( on 10 man). I’ve cleared the first wing of icc 3 times. And i’ve seen one tanking thing drop (a shield, which I won) I will admit a wasn’t looking at how much healer stuff dropped, but 12 boss kills and one thing dropped for tanks. I might justbe really unlucky but that seems rediculous to me. My raid makeup was 2tanks 3 heals and 5 dps. So one guarenteed drop for a healer or tank (50 50 chance for what it’s gonna be) doesn’t seem unfair to me at all.
I also think that tank and healer loot should be upgraded a little or something. On my prot pally I was in mostly 75-80 tanking blues. I had about 24k umbuffed. And no one wanted me to tank thier heroic cuz they didn’t want to wipe. So no heroics=no gear. If they buffed stamina on ylearly tanking blues it would help alot. This was before ulduar came out so heroics were still kinda hard.
I typed this on an Iphone and I’ve never really typed on one before. So sorry for any typoes and what not
hi im a dps and i regualy get abused or dissed by other people because of one thing: im a boomkin. people regually joke *so why aint you rolled a proper dps class or stuff like that and tbh it annoys me. i regualy chuck out out at least 5k dps so ill pull my weight in raids. my current guild treats me well and i get plently of raids. however when i pug its like *were only taking you because of your aura* and it annoys me. lots of steps have been taken to make moonkins more dps efficent but the insults remain. so no i dont believe dps is less important then others, i think idiots are worth less then others.
oh and btw i love my class so pfft to you
TLDR: I come for insight, not trolling.
Full version:
I appreciate that provoking discussion is important and that the poster is a guest, but I expect better than this from World of Matticus. Even if the article was deliberately obtuse in an effort to elicit a response, that is not only highly unprofessional, but also no excuse for wholly dismissing the contributions of damage dealers.
Many arguments have already been made, but I will reiterate two for special emphasis.
* Fights are built around enrage timers. Even in Burning Crusade, taking down Gruul the Dragonkiller was impossible without enough DPS to bring him down before the tank was overwhelmed by Gruul’s increasing strength. In WotLK, enrage timers became even more prevalent. Grand Widow Faerlina required that the raid (until they became overgeared) kill her within four frenzies. Patchwerk had a hard six minute timer. Malygos had a hard timer. Kel’Thuzad’s adds gained a stacking damage buff that eventually would overwhelm any tank. Flame Leviathan dealt a steady stream of unavoidable damage to the entire raid. Thorim gained a stacking damage buff that became especially dangerous in “hard mode.”
* Fights are built around killing adds quickly. Freya wouldn’t be possible without DPS spreading across adds appropriately and downing them quickly. Mimiron P3 requires robots to die in a timely fashion lest they overwhelm the raid. Yogg-Saron requires tentacles to be brought down. Gormok requires snobolds to be killed. Jaraxxus requires Mistresses and Infernals to be killed.
There are also a few examples of astonishing, willful ignorance in the article to which I must draw attention:
* “If the tank dies who gets the blame? Not the DPS classes that didn’t burn the mob down fast enough but the healer who didn’t heal well enough.”
If the author has been in raids where blame for a tank death falls exclusively on healers, then I recommend zie find a raid leader worth hir salt. Slow DPS on Gormok’s snobolds will wipe the raid, slow DPS on Jaraxxus’ adds will wipe the raid, slow DPS on XT’s adds will wipe the raid, and the list goes on. The burden of a raid leader includes correctly assessing the cause of failure – and that cause is sometimes slow DPS.
* “Who’s ever heard of a Main DPS before?”
The main DPS is the standout player, or group of standout players, whose job it is to blow things up quickly. In Hyjal, we had a handful of our best melee moving through the trash waves, killing Necromancers before their adds became overwhelming. The raid lived and died, in large part, on how well they did their jobs. That’s main DPS. Today, those are the people burning down Snobolds and Mistresses of Pain and Assault Bots. Try doing Jaraxxus in content-appropriate with no DPS on any of the adds for the entire fight. See how that goes for you.
* “Sub-par DPS can join a raid (even if it’s not desirable) but sub-par tanks cannot tank one and poor healers cannot heal one.”
A sub-par tank will do fine in a raid, until zie sustains an unhealable amount of damage. A sub-par healer will do fine in a raid, until zie cannot keep up with the damage incoming to the raid. A sub-par DPS will do fine in a raid, until zie fails to make the enrage timer, or kill an add in time, or interrupt a spell.
* “DPS can just be picked up randomly as required.”
I have an idea for your second guest post on this blog (god forbid): Try this sometime in a raid. Get your two tanks and two healers from a trusted source like your guild, and say “LF DPS ICC10, taking anyone” in trade chat. Take the first six people who reply. Write a post about how that turns out for you. I have a suggestion for the title: “I was wrong – damage dealers DO matter.”
@Matticus:
I respect your right to choose your guest posters, but just as I was appalled by Lodur’s post which reduced women to dehumanized cliches, I am appalled by this post, which reduces 60% of a given raid to deadweight. I am all for thoughtful discussion and challenging existing norms. However, just as one wouldn’t start a Holy vs Disc debate by saying “Disc priests are terrible and do not deserve loot”, one should not begin a discussion of the worth of damage dealers by outright dismissing them. As a loyal reader of your blog, I plead that in the future, you screen your guest posts more carefully.
@Neil: It happens. Everyone’s going to have different levels of tolerance to the material they’re exposed to. Some people are okay with it. Some people have a neutral attitude towards the things they read and others are instantly energized. It’s difficult as it is to pinpoint what is truly incendiary and what isn’t. I’ve turned down relatively high-risk flameworthy posts in the past, albeit for different reasons. As long as its a clear idea, conveyed in a relatively respectful manner (or obviously satirical), I’ll take a chance with it. Sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn’t. Judging by the temperature and response to this post, it’s probably not likely that WFS is every going to submit another guest post again for fear of pissing off the internet.
So TLDR: Your feedback is accepted, noted, and pinned to the corkboard on my wall. ^^
(Yes, I have a corkboard and its full of nothing but receipts)
“Certainly in the grouping and raiding that I’ve done, both in WoW and other games, is that I’ve always felt a lot less pressured when I DPS compared to the other two roles.”
WFS, this comment really made me think, because at first I was inclined to completely disagree, and then I thought about it a bit more.
I find the leadership role a lot more stressful.
Now, this is based purely on anecdotal evidence, but in the groups with whom I run, it seems like often tanks and healers take on leadership roles. Perhaps it’s actually the other way around – leaders take on the healing and tank roles because they see a need for more of that group role, and, as leaders, feel it is their duty to step up to the plate.
When I’m not leading, healing becomes a breeze, a walk in the park. Clickity click click hurrah! But when I am, it’s stressful. It is exactly the same when I DPS.
TLDR, leading is stressful in and of itself, and lots of leaders take on the healing or tanking role. However, correlation between the two does not mean causality.
.-= Miss Medicina´s last blog ..Salvaging the "Oculus Failure" =-.
This post managed to rattle the cage. Bravo!
All roles in a team be it 5 man or raid is important just as all roles in a company is important, you need all roles filled with good players, but there is a difference in importance. There is the difference in responsibility, or rather blame, how often do you hear the dps getting blamed for the wipe?
There are fights where it comes down to the dps if you will make it or not but even these fights require the tanks and healers to perform without fail, the popular example many dpsers bring is patchwerk (used too bring atleast), well if your tanks cant take the beating and the healers heal through the hatefulls your dps will be very low since you all will be dead. If your dps is having a bad day your tanks and healers will have to work harder, if your tanks or healers have a bad day you wipe.
It’s not about dpsers being worse players, it’s just about the significans of the role. Many times have the day been saved by a stellar dpser.
Lastly ask yourself this: In a boss fight a tank, a healer and a dps is about to die, you can only save 2 of them, who do you choose?
.-= Uskan´s last blog ..Bah Humbug =-.
This article is silly. You want extra rewards as a tank? How about the fact that you have hardly anyone rolling against you for gear in raids. Try being a shadow priest and having to roll against everyone and their mother for a piece of gear. DPS can often be competing with 7 people in the raid for an upgrade. It takes them longer to gear.
You have instant queues in LFD. Seems like a nice perk.
You don’t have to be a good tank to get an instant pug raid in trade chat. You are in by default because there is such a tank shortage. It doesn’t matter if you have no clue what you’re doing, because half your initial threat will be generated by the “dime a dozen” hunters and rogues who misdirected mobs back to you, essentially doing half your job…then you can just stand there and spam your rotation while you get dedicated heals.
There’s a tank shortage not because you’re job is so hard, it’s because most people would rather follow than lead. Raid main tanking isn’t rocket science. For the most part you are focused on 1 boss, spamming your rotation and taunts while everyone else is out dodging fires and other crap, dispelling, misdirecting, healing and managing adds.
Everyone in the raid is working equally hard…to say that tanks work harder and deserve more is a complete line of BS.
I’m seriously getting tired of hot-headed tanks who think they are “special” and deserve more than others. I’m tired of joining a pug and having the tank instantly charge into the dungeon full speed ahead like Captain Kool-Aid bursting through a brick wall, with no regard for anyone else in the group. Forget buffs. I get like 3 seconds to get everything together. Like the genius tank today who, right after a boss fight, instantly ran ahead and picked up a massive group of mobs while I was trying to rez 2 dead people.
I am a paladin tank and now the MT for my guild. I have tanked most things apart from the new ICC. One thing i have learned is healers make me look good as i stand there taking a beating but survive, my guilds ‘good’ dps reduce my healers stress as they dont take damage they dont need to while killing the boss quickly.
I think the only reward tanks and healers need is ‘respect’ (if they are any good)
I have that from my guild, my healers certainly have it from me, and dps that knows their rotations and moves correctly and gets the big numbers, they also have my respect, anyone can dps, but to dps properly takes skill.
In response to a (much) earlier post, which read something like: “Tanks and Healers are only this vital in 5mans. In raiding, DPS is usually what decides the outcome, and the ‘tank shortage’ is due to the lower tanks-to-everything-else ratio in 25mans. Surprisingly, DPS is harder to find than the other roles, perhaps because bad players don’t last long if they are not DPS.”
—–
Frankly, I wouldn’t mind seeing some more variance in encounter design in terms of number of tanks, heals, DPS. Pretty much everyone I know has dual-spec these days, and it would be fun and interesting to use it to tweak raid composition rather than just compensating for DC’d players.
I’d also really like to see a fight at the 5man level that singles out bad DPS and prevents the group from surviving the fight unless the bad DPS are weeded out. Every fight is like that for the tanks and heals; I wish DPS could occasionally be held to the same standard. Aside from leading DPS to improve, this may alter the ratio of roles in the LFG queue. It’s tiresome to need to wait 15+ minutes before I can get in touch with my dark side, should the urge take me.
Thanks for everyone’s comments. They’ve been incredibly interesting and I’ve really enjoyed reading them. They’ve certainly given me a renewed perspective on DPS and people’s opinion about it! Great stuff.
As for the controversy around the article, I was initially very surprised by how much of a storm it created although given my time on the Internet, I suppose I shouldn’t have been
I think had the article be phrased as a question (“Do you think healers and tanks should get bigger rewards?”) rather than a statement it would’ve lessened that.
However, like I said over on Angry Healers, let’s not make a mountain out of a mole hill! If every article on every blog was a postive reinforcement of what we already know and think then they really wouldn’t be worth reading would they
.-= We Fly Spitfires´s last blog ..Husband Picks Wife Over Orc; WoW More Addictive Than Cocaine =-.
I enjoyed your article, I have a healer main. I have total respect for my fellow raid team! As the majority of posts have already stated, we are a team, and I for one enjoy my part of that team as heals.
The satisfaction of the entire team succeding makes raiding totally worthwile. Many times it is the team mentality that gets us through the bosses, so we have mutual respect for all involved.
Extra gear for the role? I feel proportionately, with as many dps needed to down the encounter, that we are close to if not equal in chances to get our upgrades. True, that some nights may be plate night or cloth night drops, but that is the RNG fun of it.
Me as DPS? I am so locked into my healer mentality – I also am subpar on my hunter and offspec druid dps. I respect you guys who can and do DO it well !!! Without you awesome DPS’ers, this game would be less fun as we would probably never see the end game content
Just my 2c.
I play all 3 roles and would like to say that I partially disagree. More and more encounters are getting designed around the “minimal dps required” mechanics, and I may like this or not but it’s the way it seems to be today.
Hence, loot priority today should probably be in this order:
- Tanks
(because they need the gear to stay up comfortably);
- Reliable dpsers without tunnel vision, with good class skills and high survivability
(because they will do most of the damage required, and won’t strain the healers making too many mistakes);
- Healers
(because they just need enough gear to have sufficient spellpower and sustained regen for long fights);
- Other damage dealers.
I heal as offspec lately – our guild has a million paladins and priests – and for what I saw from my less than perfect offset healing kit I don’t feel under pressure whatsoever in guild raids. Of course I won’t shine on Recount stats, but I can do the job fine without any issues.
On the other hand, when I heal some pug raids, my feeling is I couldn’t save the players and win the fights even if I had been wearing all healers’ dreamed best-in-slots.
With decent raid organization and tanks/dpsers with a brain they can use, healers can be “sufficiently” instead of “excellently” geared and the outcome will be good – so my guild raids are fine, and what’s slowing us down is we’d enjoy a better class combination (some classes are under-represented, we go in with whom we have available lacking some useful buffs etc) and some more dps from gear. No gear could brute-force heal an unskilled raid group – while is a very viable solution for bad random heroics
Still, healers are the foundation of a good raiding team and they deserve rewards and respect, but I am not so sure that those must come in the shape of loot priority…
Our guild has already been rewarding tanks and healers. The healers are given free flasks. The tanks are given 75G repair from the gbank each raid night. But we never let tanks or healers to have priorities on loot.
I believe the only time that tanks and healers should get more loot/reward is when the raid is above tanks threat, and healers are unable to sustain the fight length. However, it’s not really an issue for a guild that has been raiding consistently.
IMHO, Tanks and healers are the backbones of a raid force. You lose a few dps, your raid can still go okay. You will have a very difficult time when your MT is not in raid. You will have a hard time when the regular OT isn’t in the raid. You will have a lot of frustration when your strong healer is MIA.
It’s also very hard to quantify healers and tanks. There is no clear numbers, nor guide lines to tell how good the healers or the tanks are. We use our DPS meter to measure how good our dps are doing, and reward the top dps raiders. But we can’t do that for tanks and healers.
Let me tell you where I sit before I tell you where I stand. I’ve been a WoW player since 2004. In vanilla, I played a rogue, mage and hunter. I raided with my mage through AQ40 until BC was released. In BC I wanted to try tanking and rolled a Belf paladin, but ended up healing until I got the hang of tanking. In addition I leveled and played a warlock and continued to play my hunter. I switched back and forth between healing and gathering tanking pieces no one needed through BT. In Wrath, I changed my main to a DK, while leveling 6 other toons to 80 (mage, warlock, hunter, warrior, druid and my old paladin.) Currently I am one of the MTs for my guild on my DK and paladin and heal periodically on my druid. I only choose to dps on one of my other 80s when someone else wants to try tanking/healing. My first choice is always to tank and my guild mates prefer it.
While I cannot wholly support the idea of “extra” loot for tanks and healers when running 5’s or raid encounters, I can say without reservation that tanks and healers are the backbone of any well oiled group and that dps as a whole are, in fact, a dime a dozen. I’ve come to this conclusion after countless runs in all three capacities and inevitably my satisfaction in a group is highest when:
1.) The entire team is great
2.) The tank is great
3.) The tank and the healer are both great
4.) The healer is great
5.) The dps are great
Clearly the experience is the best, when everyone is functioning at a high level and the run cruises along with chain pulls, smash-mouth dps and seemingly endless health to support this type of dungeon crawl. But put into context a great tank is your greatest asset – even beyond a great healer. A great tank leads from the front, knows the dungeon and its fight mechanics, and understands his class well. They also are adept at handling “Oh, sh*t” situations and can often times prevent wipes through their inherent uses of CDs for threat/dmge reduction and gathering loose mobs on the fly.
While a terrific healer can definitely save your behind from a tank’s poor pulled/over-pulled room or overzealous dps threat, they are – or should be in my opinion as a part-time healer as well – support players proactively and reactively prolonging the other player’s abilities. A great healer, rarely leads from the front in literal terms – they’ll be creamed. It’s the competent tank that sets the pace, leads dungeon exploration, coordinates the pulls and positions mobs for the best possible outcomes for dps and healers alike.
As an avid heroic runner when we aren’t raiding I can say that I have almost given up on dps LFG tool. Experience has taught me that the tank is, more often than not, the bar from which the ‘fun” level is set. And despite many tanks in at least 232 gear now from the LFG loot piñata, skill still cannot be bought with emblems.
I’d have to agree with some of the previous posters that often times all a tank wants from a group is the common respect to let them do their job, without the hassle of managing reckless behavior from the rest of the group. We don’t even need a “thanks”. Just let us stay in front (RIP Sap skill), set the pace and set the rest of the group up for doing the most damage/minimizing over healing.
As a healer (priest), I would just like to be more appreciated, if your guild as a /guildnamehealer channel, all the healer will bitch about it. I dont think we should get extra for doing our job but what I would like is… NOT TO MIX THE HEALERS LOOT WITH DPS LOOT
Why in god name did Blizzard gave utility to spirit for mages and warlock? wtf?
What was previously priest gear (or druid for neck/rings) now became mages and warlock gear. They already have gear that have hit rating and no mana regen. Now I ahve to fight the other healers AND the dps to get better gear. Tank do not have that problem, you rarely need more than 3 tanks, they get new upgrade quickly.
You want to reward the healers? Change how the class work or make the loot class specific (less desirable).
The reward for putting up with being a healer or tank is instant queue times. You get quicker groups more often.
DPS are already queuing as healers or tanks to get quicker groups, we don’t want to encourage them by giving them extra rewards at the end.
I see a lot of share the same sentiment but I’m going to post a comment anyway.
The reason you become a tank or healer is for the LOVE of it. You get a sense of satisfaction out of that role that you don’t get being a dps class. Maybe it is the sense of control, or of martyrdom, or whatever it is for you.
You don’t become a tank or a healer because you want additional loot or in-game rewards. And if Blizz started doing that, every joe-schmoe would become one, and they wouldn’t necessarily be any good at it.
Fair distribution of loot:
“For the Kingdom of Heaven is like a man who was the master of a household, who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. When he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard. He went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace. To them he said, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.’ So they went their way. Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did likewise. About the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle. He said to them, ‘Why do you stand here all day idle?’ “They said to him, ‘Because no one has hired us.’ “He said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and you will receive whatever is right.’ When evening had come, the lord of the vineyard said to his steward, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning from the last to the first.’ “When those who were hired at about the eleventh hour came, they each received a denarius. When the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise each received a denarius. When they received it, they murmured against the master of the household, saying, ‘These last have spent one hour, and you have made them equal to us, who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat!’ “But he answered one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Didn’t you agree with me for a denarius? Take that which is yours, and go your way. It is my desire to give to this last just as much as to you. Isn’t it lawful for me to do what I want to with what I own? Or is your eye evil, because I am good?’ So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few are chosen.”
@Simbaria: Lets not quote bible passages here. I respect it, but like, I don’t think that’s necessary.
Ok, never again, but it is at least relevant.
OP: They require the most effort and who can argue that as a result they should get the biggest rewards?
ME: God
After reading the initial post and the responses by the original poster to the comments here.. its pretty simple the initial post was meant to stir thing up and get people reacting to a silly assumtion.
@Simbaria: the bible was written over 500 years after the so called events portrayed in there.. it might be a semi interesting read but truth? Highly doubtful.
To be brief, every time someone spreads the belief that dps are a dime a dozen, you end up with that many fewer dps players with incentive to improve their skills.
As for giving healers something extra, I tell my guild all the time that I have it easy: they kill stuff, and I get a share of the loot. How much more can you ask, honestly?
This post smacks of a /Trade Troll. I’m not sure why Matt allowed it to be published, other than increased traffic due to its controversy.
Poor form.
@vine: I don’t know why people continue to think I do stuff “for the hits”. It’s not like I’m getting paid per page view or visit anything. The ads I have right now are just there because of a sponsor agreement which keeps this blog running and not offline. There’s no quota. I’d publish regardless whether I get 5 subscribers or 5000. I don’t think my blog is useless or boring to the point where I felt it needed some kind of controversial post to get “numbers” and traffic back up again.
Look, it went through because I thought it was an interesting post and I honestly didn’t believe it would generate so much controversy.
I was wrong.
As a consequence, I’m going to need to take a much closer look at future guest posts and become increasingly paranoid and “politically correct” about how the tones and words of posts are conveyed.
I’m tired of moderating this post so I’m going to seal off future comments. Feel free to continue to email more feedback though, I encourage that. I just get really irritated when someone says I do stuff “for page views”. Unfortunately, e-reputation doesn’t quite pay for my tuition. ASUS and Razer hasn’t really come knocking on my door offering me free stuff in exchange for links (although that would be cool).