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	<title>Comments on: Of Heroes and Villains Part 3</title>
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	<link>http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2009/07/22/of-heroes-and-villains-part-3/</link>
	<description>Practical advice for World of Warcraft healers and leaders</description>
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		<title>By: Roary</title>
		<link>http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2009/07/22/of-heroes-and-villains-part-3/comment-page-1/#comment-21785</link>
		<dc:creator>Roary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Jul 2009 07:24:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.worldofmatticus.com/?p=5778#comment-21785</guid>
		<description>(please don&#039;t eat me or anything, i realize the topic is about how the balance relating to the hero classes, I just wouldn&#039;t know where to put this)

I&#039;m just a guest but a had an idea (An extremely nerdy idea as it be) A class that&#039;s skill use was based of using symbols in a specific order to unlock skills to be used.

Say a person could press symbol number 1, trigger a global cooldown, and then use what skills that symbol would unlock, then symbol number 2, trigger a global cooldown, then use the skills available to that symbol.

Then say symbol 1, trigger global cooldown, then symbol 2, trigger global cooldown, then trigger available skills. 

the longer the symbol chains, the more powerful the technique unleashed would be, granting a unique new way to unleash skills that would be more engaging that clicking a button and watching a spell cast bar go by

It would be a new system that would require foresight, not neccesarily be a great reactive class, so tanking would certaintly not be a very good role to fit the system. Neither would healing I&#039;d imagine, but for A ranged/Spell DPS (like we need another one lol) it sounds like it could be really interesting to me.

If you don&#039;t think I&#039;m a complete dork with a bad idea, I&#039;d really like to hear any other ideas on a new, or interesting idea for a new way of playing a possible new class. (I&#039;ve left a few posts here, since i havnt needed a password or anything, i figured it was ok, but if it isnt, please tell me and I&#039;ll shush)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(please don&#8217;t eat me or anything, i realize the topic is about how the balance relating to the hero classes, I just wouldn&#8217;t know where to put this)</p>
<p>I&#8217;m just a guest but a had an idea (An extremely nerdy idea as it be) A class that&#8217;s skill use was based of using symbols in a specific order to unlock skills to be used.</p>
<p>Say a person could press symbol number 1, trigger a global cooldown, and then use what skills that symbol would unlock, then symbol number 2, trigger a global cooldown, then use the skills available to that symbol.</p>
<p>Then say symbol 1, trigger global cooldown, then symbol 2, trigger global cooldown, then trigger available skills. </p>
<p>the longer the symbol chains, the more powerful the technique unleashed would be, granting a unique new way to unleash skills that would be more engaging that clicking a button and watching a spell cast bar go by</p>
<p>It would be a new system that would require foresight, not neccesarily be a great reactive class, so tanking would certaintly not be a very good role to fit the system. Neither would healing I&#8217;d imagine, but for A ranged/Spell DPS (like we need another one lol) it sounds like it could be really interesting to me.</p>
<p>If you don&#8217;t think I&#8217;m a complete dork with a bad idea, I&#8217;d really like to hear any other ideas on a new, or interesting idea for a new way of playing a possible new class. (I&#8217;ve left a few posts here, since i havnt needed a password or anything, i figured it was ok, but if it isnt, please tell me and I&#8217;ll shush)</p>
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		<title>By: rusquel</title>
		<link>http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2009/07/22/of-heroes-and-villains-part-3/comment-page-1/#comment-21770</link>
		<dc:creator>rusquel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Jul 2009 02:00:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.worldofmatticus.com/?p=5778#comment-21770</guid>
		<description>Perhaps ranged DPS that didn&#039;t rely on mana? That would set it apart from &#039;Locks, Mages, Shadow Priests and Hunters. 2 of those classes already have pets, so I would doubt they would try and use that as the new hero class &#039;gimmick&#039;. With all the data-mining and Worgen/Goblin playable races speculation going on, perhaps Blizz will just release new races, not another class? It is less than a year since DKs appeared, and FOTM or not, they are filling up Dalaran and here to stay. 

It does seem like Blizz has been constantly nerfing/tweaking them since they arrived, and that in the right hands they are capable tanks. Yet I wish that Blizz had forced us to reach level cap before rolling a DK. It might have made people not so hasty to ditch their &#039;main&#039; for an &#039;OP alt&#039;. Hopefully the 3.2 changes will level the playing field in terms of tanking (except for Bears...).
.-= rusquel&#180;s last blog ..&lt;a href=&quot;http://restedbonus.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/warlock-leveling-guide/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Warlock leveling guide&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps ranged DPS that didn&#8217;t rely on mana? That would set it apart from &#8216;Locks, Mages, Shadow Priests and Hunters. 2 of those classes already have pets, so I would doubt they would try and use that as the new hero class &#8216;gimmick&#8217;. With all the data-mining and Worgen/Goblin playable races speculation going on, perhaps Blizz will just release new races, not another class? It is less than a year since DKs appeared, and FOTM or not, they are filling up Dalaran and here to stay. </p>
<p>It does seem like Blizz has been constantly nerfing/tweaking them since they arrived, and that in the right hands they are capable tanks. Yet I wish that Blizz had forced us to reach level cap before rolling a DK. It might have made people not so hasty to ditch their &#8216;main&#8217; for an &#8216;OP alt&#8217;. Hopefully the 3.2 changes will level the playing field in terms of tanking (except for Bears&#8230;).<br />
.-= rusquel&#180;s last blog ..<a href="http://restedbonus.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/warlock-leveling-guide/" rel="nofollow">Warlock leveling guide</a> =-.</p>
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		<title>By: Silk</title>
		<link>http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2009/07/22/of-heroes-and-villains-part-3/comment-page-1/#comment-21769</link>
		<dc:creator>Silk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 23:48:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.worldofmatticus.com/?p=5778#comment-21769</guid>
		<description>I tend to agree with Ends.  Not so much that they deliberately overpowered but they were definitely balanced on the positive side initially to encourage people to play and level them.

The real mistake that they made, in my view, was that it looks as if several encounters were designed around validating DK tanking.  Personally my experience of DKs at heroics level was that they were the *worst* tanks to heal, however by the time we got to Vezax our first kill was tanked by an off tanking spec DK (when none of our main tanks - pallies - could get it done).

At the moment DK tanking (despite being nerfed every patch since Wrath was released) is still far and away the strongest choice for hard modes.  In a world requiring cooldowns to survive, he with the most cooldowns wins.
.-= Silk&#180;s last blog ..&lt;a href=&quot;http://silkwow.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/3-2-numberz/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;3.2 â€“ Numberz&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I tend to agree with Ends.  Not so much that they deliberately overpowered but they were definitely balanced on the positive side initially to encourage people to play and level them.</p>
<p>The real mistake that they made, in my view, was that it looks as if several encounters were designed around validating DK tanking.  Personally my experience of DKs at heroics level was that they were the *worst* tanks to heal, however by the time we got to Vezax our first kill was tanked by an off tanking spec DK (when none of our main tanks &#8211; pallies &#8211; could get it done).</p>
<p>At the moment DK tanking (despite being nerfed every patch since Wrath was released) is still far and away the strongest choice for hard modes.  In a world requiring cooldowns to survive, he with the most cooldowns wins.<br />
.-= Silk&#180;s last blog ..<a href="http://silkwow.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/3-2-numberz/" rel="nofollow">3.2 â€“ Numberz</a> =-.</p>
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		<title>By: Totemshock</title>
		<link>http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2009/07/22/of-heroes-and-villains-part-3/comment-page-1/#comment-21760</link>
		<dc:creator>Totemshock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 08:13:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.worldofmatticus.com/?p=5778#comment-21760</guid>
		<description>@beej

actually shamans are no longer kings of AoEâ€¦Â more the king of the &quot;smart burst&quot;

With fast hitting spammable heals that splash smartly onto other units that need it the most we are good at responding to emergencies one to three targets at a time. When the whole raid is taking damage though we will rarely beat out wild growth+rejuvenation or the holy priest&#039;s selection of spells. On Hodir this means I keep the people closest to death from dying, but it&#039;s our druid that actually tops everyone up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@beej</p>
<p>actually shamans are no longer kings of AoEâ€¦Â more the king of the &#8220;smart burst&#8221;</p>
<p>With fast hitting spammable heals that splash smartly onto other units that need it the most we are good at responding to emergencies one to three targets at a time. When the whole raid is taking damage though we will rarely beat out wild growth+rejuvenation or the holy priest&#8217;s selection of spells. On Hodir this means I keep the people closest to death from dying, but it&#8217;s our druid that actually tops everyone up.</p>
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		<title>By: Ends</title>
		<link>http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2009/07/22/of-heroes-and-villains-part-3/comment-page-1/#comment-21759</link>
		<dc:creator>Ends</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 05:02:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.worldofmatticus.com/?p=5778#comment-21759</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t mean to sound cynical, but I don&#039;t think the fact that Death Knights were overpowered at launch and nerfed later was an oversight by Blizzard.  Who cares if DKs are awesome while leveling if you can even the playing field later when everyone is at the level cap?  In fact, that seems to be exactly how Blizzard had it planned when they started every Death Knight with a full set of nice rare-quality gear when many non-DKs at the same level would still be wearing a lot of greens and lower-level blues (ever tried to find a group for Maraudon?).

Part of me suspects that Blizzard made DKs extra powerful at release to a) match players&#039; expectations and b) compensate for the short, steep learning curve.  When you&#039;ve only got 1 quest to learn how to use that new ability or talent before you get another, it is hard to master and I suspect Blizzard hedged against that. 

Both of those reasons are related I think: if players roll a DK expecting it to be &quot;epic&quot; but fail to understand the mechanics (because of how quickly they are introduced) and play poorly, then DKs would get a bad reputation that would be hard to shake.  So a &quot;hero&quot; class almost has to, by definition, be overpowered at launch and nerfed down to equality with other classes only after players have gotten the hang of the class mechanics.

If Blizzard made a mistake, I&#039;d claim that it was underestimating how quickly people would master the class and reach its full, overpowered, potential.  But if they were to introduce another class in the future, hero or not, I&#039;d assert that they are almost required to make it overpowered at launch so it didn&#039;t quickly become the laughing stock of the player-base.  Making a &quot;hero class&quot; that starts at a high level just exacerbates the problem because a) it is easier to measure them against other classes at the level cap and b) Blizzard has to compensate for the steep learning curve to keep the class feeling powerful despite its players.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t mean to sound cynical, but I don&#8217;t think the fact that Death Knights were overpowered at launch and nerfed later was an oversight by Blizzard.  Who cares if DKs are awesome while leveling if you can even the playing field later when everyone is at the level cap?  In fact, that seems to be exactly how Blizzard had it planned when they started every Death Knight with a full set of nice rare-quality gear when many non-DKs at the same level would still be wearing a lot of greens and lower-level blues (ever tried to find a group for Maraudon?).</p>
<p>Part of me suspects that Blizzard made DKs extra powerful at release to a) match players&#8217; expectations and b) compensate for the short, steep learning curve.  When you&#8217;ve only got 1 quest to learn how to use that new ability or talent before you get another, it is hard to master and I suspect Blizzard hedged against that. </p>
<p>Both of those reasons are related I think: if players roll a DK expecting it to be &#8220;epic&#8221; but fail to understand the mechanics (because of how quickly they are introduced) and play poorly, then DKs would get a bad reputation that would be hard to shake.  So a &#8220;hero&#8221; class almost has to, by definition, be overpowered at launch and nerfed down to equality with other classes only after players have gotten the hang of the class mechanics.</p>
<p>If Blizzard made a mistake, I&#8217;d claim that it was underestimating how quickly people would master the class and reach its full, overpowered, potential.  But if they were to introduce another class in the future, hero or not, I&#8217;d assert that they are almost required to make it overpowered at launch so it didn&#8217;t quickly become the laughing stock of the player-base.  Making a &#8220;hero class&#8221; that starts at a high level just exacerbates the problem because a) it is easier to measure them against other classes at the level cap and b) Blizzard has to compensate for the steep learning curve to keep the class feeling powerful despite its players.</p>
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		<title>By: Lenelie</title>
		<link>http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2009/07/22/of-heroes-and-villains-part-3/comment-page-1/#comment-21757</link>
		<dc:creator>Lenelie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 23:23:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.worldofmatticus.com/?p=5778#comment-21757</guid>
		<description>I think you can see with their continued problems balancing the existing classes we have that adding another class will simply deepen the problem. It is a matter of balancing the specs with in the class and then balancing the class against others classes in terms of pvp and pve capabilities. 

The fact they have a problem doing this with classes that have existed since the beginning of the game is a bad sign imo. I love the idea of a heroic healer (like say dnd&#039;s 4th ed bard) but I&#039;m not so sure I have faith in their ability to pull it off without overshadowing existing heal classes.
.-= Lenelie&#180;s last blog ..&lt;a href=&quot;http://leneliesvoice.wordpress.com/2009/07/19/life-in-the-geek-lane/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Life in the Geek Lane&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you can see with their continued problems balancing the existing classes we have that adding another class will simply deepen the problem. It is a matter of balancing the specs with in the class and then balancing the class against others classes in terms of pvp and pve capabilities. </p>
<p>The fact they have a problem doing this with classes that have existed since the beginning of the game is a bad sign imo. I love the idea of a heroic healer (like say dnd&#8217;s 4th ed bard) but I&#8217;m not so sure I have faith in their ability to pull it off without overshadowing existing heal classes.<br />
.-= Lenelie&#180;s last blog ..<a href="http://leneliesvoice.wordpress.com/2009/07/19/life-in-the-geek-lane/" rel="nofollow">Life in the Geek Lane</a> =-.</p>
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		<title>By: Beej</title>
		<link>http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2009/07/22/of-heroes-and-villains-part-3/comment-page-1/#comment-21753</link>
		<dc:creator>Beej</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 20:59:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.worldofmatticus.com/?p=5778#comment-21753</guid>
		<description>I wonder about them adding in new hero classes in terms of balance, too.  The healer one, as you say, overshadowing other healers is a huge challenge.  All of the WoW healing classes already seem to have every major niche I can think of filled (jack of all trades Priests, AoE Shaman, HoT Druids, and Throughput Heal Nuker Paladins), so developing a healing class and/or a resource system that doesn&#039;t feel like we&#039;re playing the same class over again is going to be a real challenge, whereas developing new styles of tanking and DPS can be done more easily through rotations and cooldowns even though DKs are still smacking things with big sticks like Ret Paladins.
.-= Beej&#180;s last blog ..&lt;a href=&quot;http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/ProfessorBeej/~3/FM1XlSjlmTc/television-as-storytelling-medium.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Television as a Storytelling Medium&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder about them adding in new hero classes in terms of balance, too.  The healer one, as you say, overshadowing other healers is a huge challenge.  All of the WoW healing classes already seem to have every major niche I can think of filled (jack of all trades Priests, AoE Shaman, HoT Druids, and Throughput Heal Nuker Paladins), so developing a healing class and/or a resource system that doesn&#8217;t feel like we&#8217;re playing the same class over again is going to be a real challenge, whereas developing new styles of tanking and DPS can be done more easily through rotations and cooldowns even though DKs are still smacking things with big sticks like Ret Paladins.<br />
.-= Beej&#180;s last blog ..<a href="http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/ProfessorBeej/~3/FM1XlSjlmTc/television-as-storytelling-medium.html" rel="nofollow">Television as a Storytelling Medium</a> =-.</p>
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		<title>By: We Fly Spitfires - MMORPG Blog</title>
		<link>http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2009/07/22/of-heroes-and-villains-part-3/comment-page-1/#comment-21752</link>
		<dc:creator>We Fly Spitfires - MMORPG Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 20:55:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.worldofmatticus.com/?p=5778#comment-21752</guid>
		<description>The issue I have with hero classes is there name. What exactly makes them more heroic than any other class? Shouldn&#039;t they be more powerful just by definition of their name?

I think Blizzard made a mistake adding &quot;hero&quot; classes, they should&#039;ve just add another class and have no distinction between the two.

But yes, class balance is tough. Very tough and every new class always has a tough time being the right fit. Look at Everquest. The Beastlord was way overpowered yet the Berserker was incredibly underpowered. It&#039;s funny too because how powerful or weak a new class is when it launches can really effect how people view it for the longterm.
.-= We Fly Spitfires - MMORPG Blog&#180;s last blog ..&lt;a href=&quot;http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/WeFlySpitfires/~3/9Su0OFGXZyc/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;World of Warcraft Movie To Be Directed By Sam Raimi&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The issue I have with hero classes is there name. What exactly makes them more heroic than any other class? Shouldn&#8217;t they be more powerful just by definition of their name?</p>
<p>I think Blizzard made a mistake adding &#8220;hero&#8221; classes, they should&#8217;ve just add another class and have no distinction between the two.</p>
<p>But yes, class balance is tough. Very tough and every new class always has a tough time being the right fit. Look at Everquest. The Beastlord was way overpowered yet the Berserker was incredibly underpowered. It&#8217;s funny too because how powerful or weak a new class is when it launches can really effect how people view it for the longterm.<br />
.-= We Fly Spitfires &#8211; MMORPG Blog&#180;s last blog ..<a href="http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/WeFlySpitfires/~3/9Su0OFGXZyc/" rel="nofollow">World of Warcraft Movie To Be Directed By Sam Raimi</a> =-.</p>
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