I think there is a very fine line between pushing people and pushing them too far.

As for Gevlon, just think Matt. You know why he trolls you guys. To get his feed up. I like his blog and think he has some very interesting posts sometimes but when he trolls you and Tobold and states that people in the third world are poor because they’re stupid it’s all about post count and it clearly is working for him.

Best wishes to Conquest and no, you won’t fall apart over this although some may leave and some new people may join.

No stress over 20 mans and Immortal – gearing people up for Ulduar is our priority. We’ll come back later and do that stuff. We’re not kicking 5 people out (twice) for this stuff – it’s not top on our list of things to get done. Progression is kills, not dragons. And the guild was mostly fine with that, honestly. They understood our priorities.

But then Blizzard removed the drakes… and we had three weeks of turmoil while we tried to juggle achievements for everyone because we didn’t want to deny people their drake rewards. Asking them to wait until later is fine; telling them they can never have it is another thing altogether.

The 20 man runs are terrible. I hate them. Possibly more than Immortal. They cause stress for the organisers, bitterness for the people who have to wait for the next one, and just generally make everyone feel bad for the night. They’re not fun, they’re not challenging, they’re just a chore.

It’s exhausting!

Keevas last blog post..The Empress’ New Clothes

Ironically, Conquest is now doing the achievements. I just have to laugh, because otherwise I might go insane.

But suddenly, if you don’t do XYZ achievements, you’re not *really* hardcore. You might have killed Sarth3D months ago, but if you can’t get Immortal, you’re not as good as another guild who has it.

That drives me crazy! I’m here for boss kills, not chalk marks on the wall to say how many achievements we’ve done. I wrote a big ramble about it one day, particularly because of the 10 man Sarth fight being included in a lot of people’s idea of “hardcore progression”: http://treebarkjacket.blogspot.com/2009/02/friday-ramble-guild-progression-and.html

This is where I agree with Rohan though. If the majority of people consider achievements to be a natural part of the progression ladders and rankings, it’s very hard to escape from the obligation of doing them. I don’t care one whit about raid achievements – but if everyone on the outside looking in considers my guild to be less progressed because we haven’t done X achievement, then I feel obliged to go push for it.

I never want to do another 20 man run or Immortal again.

Keevas last blog post..The Empress’ New Clothes

You can attempt to justify it all you want, but in the eyes of a lot of players, not even trying for Achievements shows that you are not a “serious” guild.

Second, I don’t think Achievements take as much time as you think. What we do is have every Naxx start as Immortal, and leave Construct/Military wings for last. Then if Immortal gets broken, we pick up achievements like Shocking, 4Horseman Achievement, 100 Club, and the Abom one. Similarly for 6-min Maly, set a time limit for the evening. If you don’t have it by then, just kill Maly normally.

The only Achievements which require a lot of juggling are the Undermanning ones. And since Immortal is the hardest Achievement, you can leave the Undermanning ones for after Immortal.

my point is whether we like it or not blizz has place these achievements in instances in order to gauge a guild’s progression. like you pointed out some of the naxx achievements seem “silly” but doing the 4 horsemen achievement (for example) does require much more skill than blowing heroism and downing the 2 front horsemen in under a minute. achievements are not only a valid way to determine the skill of a guild; currently it is THE only way to determine it, as even casual guilds easily clear all content.

with this in mind i simply commented that a raider who doesn’t want to do the achievements now because they it takes too long and they don’t get loot is raiding for the wrong reasons (in my “raider” book). my guess is that these people have voiced that once there are proper incentives in place (ie loot) they will be more than happy to take the necessary time to do the achievements. my guess is after hours of frustrating wipes/repair costs/consumables/time they are not going to want to stick with the attempts and will once again take the easy way out. am i judging them? i guess i’m just evaluating the type of player they are and guessing what their reaction is going to be to real encounters. my guild wiped for about 10-15 hrs straight on KJ for 2 months but we kept going. i think that is that attitude that will get you places (if you hunters know how to target orbs, that is).

I’m curious if we will be having a similar discussion 2 months into Ulduar: If most guilds “clear” Ulduar by downing the bosses on Normal mode, how many players who’s interest waned after 2 months in Nax will want to spend an additional 2 months in the same instance, attempting the same encounters on a higher difficulty? While there will be additional gear, AlGore the Raid Destroyer and the legendary drops (which probably warrants it’s own post Matt and Syd) will those things be enough of a draw for everyone to keep up the good fight and down the same bosses again on the hard modes? Definitely something to be conscious of over the next couple of months.

As far as Conquest goes, I have no doubt that the leadership there will be able to handle whatever situations come up. From everything that I’ve read on WoM and Plus Heal, Matt and Syd are are extremely rational, they think things through and make solid decisions. Conquest will be fine and they’ll soon be posting about their first kills in Ulduar.