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	<title>Comments on: Girls Hate Chuck Norris: On Women and Raiding Guilds</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2009/02/11/girls-hate-chuck-norris-on-women-and-raiding-guilds/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2009/02/11/girls-hate-chuck-norris-on-women-and-raiding-guilds/</link>
	<description>Where healers come first</description>
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		<title>By: Zusterke</title>
		<link>http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2009/02/11/girls-hate-chuck-norris-on-women-and-raiding-guilds/comment-page-2/#comment-18262</link>
		<dc:creator>Zusterke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:57:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.worldofmatticus.com/?p=3640#comment-18262</guid>
		<description>Rochmoninoff, I&#039;m not going to disagree your points (as they seem to be based on personal experience), but when women stirr things up for their &quot;unique-snowflake&quot;-drama... a large part of the problem is that men are letting themselves be pulled into that drama. A dramaqueen can&#039;t scream for attention in deaf-mans-land.

Don&#039;t get me wrong.. but I feel a lot men in the wow community are weak when it comes to women which is makes the group an ideal playground for dramaqueens. They&#039;d get to pick their drama flavor of the hour, like kids in candyshop.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rochmoninoff, I&#8217;m not going to disagree your points (as they seem to be based on personal experience), but when women stirr things up for their &#8220;unique-snowflake&#8221;-drama&#8230; a large part of the problem is that men are letting themselves be pulled into that drama. A dramaqueen can&#8217;t scream for attention in deaf-mans-land.</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t get me wrong.. but I feel a lot men in the wow community are weak when it comes to women which is makes the group an ideal playground for dramaqueens. They&#8217;d get to pick their drama flavor of the hour, like kids in candyshop.</p>
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		<title>By: Women and raiding &#171; In The Fringes</title>
		<link>http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2009/02/11/girls-hate-chuck-norris-on-women-and-raiding-guilds/comment-page-2/#comment-18232</link>
		<dc:creator>Women and raiding &#171; In The Fringes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Feb 2009 18:58:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.worldofmatticus.com/?p=3640#comment-18232</guid>
		<description>[...] it comes to WoW and raiding, I think Sydera has got it covered in on women and raiding guilds. I just don&#8217;t agree that the anonimity of the game level the playing field. I don&#8217;t [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] it comes to WoW and raiding, I think Sydera has got it covered in on women and raiding guilds. I just don&#8217;t agree that the anonimity of the game level the playing field. I don&#8217;t [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Just My Take&#8230; &#171; Ricomoss</title>
		<link>http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2009/02/11/girls-hate-chuck-norris-on-women-and-raiding-guilds/comment-page-2/#comment-18195</link>
		<dc:creator>Just My Take&#8230; &#171; Ricomoss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 17:43:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.worldofmatticus.com/?p=3640#comment-18195</guid>
		<description>[...] over at World of Matticus regarding gender rolls and peoples perspectives.Ã‚Â  The article was titled Girls Hate Chuck Norris: On Women and Raiding Guilds written by Sydera and gives an excellent perspective of a women&#8217;s experience in a raiding [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] over at World of Matticus regarding gender rolls and peoples perspectives.Ã‚Â  The article was titled Girls Hate Chuck Norris: On Women and Raiding Guilds written by Sydera and gives an excellent perspective of a women&#8217;s experience in a raiding [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Rochmoninoff</title>
		<link>http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2009/02/11/girls-hate-chuck-norris-on-women-and-raiding-guilds/comment-page-2/#comment-18131</link>
		<dc:creator>Rochmoninoff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 18:51:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.worldofmatticus.com/?p=3640#comment-18131</guid>
		<description>To me the only relevent point is &quot;Women hate each other&quot;.
I&#039;ve seen this happen at work.
I&#039;ve seen this happen in my former guild.
I wouldn&#039;t call this universal, but it only take a few bad-eggs to spoil life for everyone.
Personally I believe this is an outward expression of internal social (genetic?) programming - women seem to naturally operation outside of heirarchicall organizations, men are more likely to &quot;toe the line&quot;.

As an ealier poster mentioned, women who behave this way like to be &quot;unique snowflakes&quot; in all-male guilds.  

I believe that for the rest, its a case of overcomming natural inclinations that allow so many women to succeed.


Regarding the flirting thing - the behaviors that are norms in some guilds, for both men and women, annoy me.  And they DO stir up trouble.
I want WoW to be fun and an overheated guild isn&#039;t going to be fun (at least long term it woun&#039;t be).
Broken hearts lead to /gquits.  
Same thing would happen in an all-male guild populated with homosexuals.
The problem is not that they&#039;re women and women = trouble makers.
The problem is that they&#039;re potential romanic partners.
The best way to deal with this in a guild is avoid saying/doing stuff you wouldn&#039;t be comfortable saying/doing in real life.

The one stereotype you didn&#039;t meantion is that &quot;Women are more likely to help you if you ask&quot;.  This has been my experience and why I end up seeking out the female members of our guild - they&#039;re more likely to say &quot;yes&quot; if you ask them to fill out an instance run or help with a group quest.  The male players are more selfish.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To me the only relevent point is &#8220;Women hate each other&#8221;.<br />
I&#8217;ve seen this happen at work.<br />
I&#8217;ve seen this happen in my former guild.<br />
I wouldn&#8217;t call this universal, but it only take a few bad-eggs to spoil life for everyone.<br />
Personally I believe this is an outward expression of internal social (genetic?) programming &#8211; women seem to naturally operation outside of heirarchicall organizations, men are more likely to &#8220;toe the line&#8221;.</p>
<p>As an ealier poster mentioned, women who behave this way like to be &#8220;unique snowflakes&#8221; in all-male guilds.  </p>
<p>I believe that for the rest, its a case of overcomming natural inclinations that allow so many women to succeed.</p>
<p>Regarding the flirting thing &#8211; the behaviors that are norms in some guilds, for both men and women, annoy me.  And they DO stir up trouble.<br />
I want WoW to be fun and an overheated guild isn&#8217;t going to be fun (at least long term it woun&#8217;t be).<br />
Broken hearts lead to /gquits.<br />
Same thing would happen in an all-male guild populated with homosexuals.<br />
The problem is not that they&#8217;re women and women = trouble makers.<br />
The problem is that they&#8217;re potential romanic partners.<br />
The best way to deal with this in a guild is avoid saying/doing stuff you wouldn&#8217;t be comfortable saying/doing in real life.</p>
<p>The one stereotype you didn&#8217;t meantion is that &#8220;Women are more likely to help you if you ask&#8221;.  This has been my experience and why I end up seeking out the female members of our guild &#8211; they&#8217;re more likely to say &#8220;yes&#8221; if you ask them to fill out an instance run or help with a group quest.  The male players are more selfish.</p>
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		<title>By: Kayeri</title>
		<link>http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2009/02/11/girls-hate-chuck-norris-on-women-and-raiding-guilds/comment-page-2/#comment-18127</link>
		<dc:creator>Kayeri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 17:44:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.worldofmatticus.com/?p=3640#comment-18127</guid>
		<description>Great post, Sydera... I&#039;m a woman in a 3-night-a-week raid guild run by women, and probably 1/3-/1/2 female populated.  We don&#039;t have a lot of problems related to gender issues, period, and I&#039;m grateful for it.  I&#039;d like to think most of the WoW world has conceded that women can play as well as men, and in fact, you can never be 100% certain who&#039;s sitting on the other side of the screen, ever...

It&#039;s funny, though, when the occasional kindness has been bestowed upon me (usually in the form of a hand when I&#039;m questing and get tangled with multiple mobs), I&#039;ve always attributed it to me being a healer and not to my or my toon&#039;s gender...  

When it has been stuff, depending on the attitude of the giver, I&#039;ve attributed it to anything from a new and lonely person trying to &#039;buy&#039; a friend to someone with just an abundance of stuff trying to get rid of it... Gender hasnt even occurred to me as a possible reason...

Interesting thought and one I&#039;ll have to ponder more...

oh, and for guys playing female toons... a male friend of mine put it well, &quot;If I have to look at someone&#039;s butt most of the time, I&#039;d rather look at a female butt!&quot;  Perfectly logical when put like that!  ::chuckle::</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post, Sydera&#8230; I&#8217;m a woman in a 3-night-a-week raid guild run by women, and probably 1/3-/1/2 female populated.  We don&#8217;t have a lot of problems related to gender issues, period, and I&#8217;m grateful for it.  I&#8217;d like to think most of the WoW world has conceded that women can play as well as men, and in fact, you can never be 100% certain who&#8217;s sitting on the other side of the screen, ever&#8230;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s funny, though, when the occasional kindness has been bestowed upon me (usually in the form of a hand when I&#8217;m questing and get tangled with multiple mobs), I&#8217;ve always attributed it to me being a healer and not to my or my toon&#8217;s gender&#8230;  </p>
<p>When it has been stuff, depending on the attitude of the giver, I&#8217;ve attributed it to anything from a new and lonely person trying to &#8216;buy&#8217; a friend to someone with just an abundance of stuff trying to get rid of it&#8230; Gender hasnt even occurred to me as a possible reason&#8230;</p>
<p>Interesting thought and one I&#8217;ll have to ponder more&#8230;</p>
<p>oh, and for guys playing female toons&#8230; a male friend of mine put it well, &#8220;If I have to look at someone&#8217;s butt most of the time, I&#8217;d rather look at a female butt!&#8221;  Perfectly logical when put like that!  ::chuckle::</p>
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		<title>By: Ashke</title>
		<link>http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2009/02/11/girls-hate-chuck-norris-on-women-and-raiding-guilds/comment-page-2/#comment-18087</link>
		<dc:creator>Ashke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Feb 2009 00:51:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.worldofmatticus.com/?p=3640#comment-18087</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll agree with most of this. As a female player, most of the stereotypes are mystifying, but I sure do like non-combat pets! 

As someone directly involved with guild politics for raiding through the original game and TBC, though, I&#039;d like to add my thoughts to the &quot;Women are bad players&quot; myth. Many of our best players were women (especially our healers, for whatever reason, but a good few DPSers as well), but most of our worst players also tended to be women. And that made absolute sense and doesn&#039;t reflect on our gender at all. The issue was the treatment of female players by our raid leaders and guild leaders (and I was complicit in this, so I&#039;m not passing off blame).

Many of our female players were wives and girlfriends of other, stronger players. So one issue was that we were reluctant to be too harsh (not that we were ever particularly harsh) on them lest we offend their partners. While we might take a poorly-performing mage to task normally, if she&#039;s the wife of our top dps player or our tank, it becomes a bit more political.

Another issue was that we were a bit too quick to accept stereotypes. Since women are &quot;more emotional&quot; and &quot;worse gamers,&quot; it&#039;s easy to talk yourself into letting someone perform badly to avoid some sort of imagined confrontation. You don&#039;t want to be the one who made the underperforming druid cry, right?

So, at long last, my point: There are good players, and there are bad players. And there are otherwise good guilds that let bad players hang around and underperform because those bad players are women, where if they had been men they&#039;d be out of the raid group. Which, in the long run, does no one any good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll agree with most of this. As a female player, most of the stereotypes are mystifying, but I sure do like non-combat pets! </p>
<p>As someone directly involved with guild politics for raiding through the original game and TBC, though, I&#8217;d like to add my thoughts to the &#8220;Women are bad players&#8221; myth. Many of our best players were women (especially our healers, for whatever reason, but a good few DPSers as well), but most of our worst players also tended to be women. And that made absolute sense and doesn&#8217;t reflect on our gender at all. The issue was the treatment of female players by our raid leaders and guild leaders (and I was complicit in this, so I&#8217;m not passing off blame).</p>
<p>Many of our female players were wives and girlfriends of other, stronger players. So one issue was that we were reluctant to be too harsh (not that we were ever particularly harsh) on them lest we offend their partners. While we might take a poorly-performing mage to task normally, if she&#8217;s the wife of our top dps player or our tank, it becomes a bit more political.</p>
<p>Another issue was that we were a bit too quick to accept stereotypes. Since women are &#8220;more emotional&#8221; and &#8220;worse gamers,&#8221; it&#8217;s easy to talk yourself into letting someone perform badly to avoid some sort of imagined confrontation. You don&#8217;t want to be the one who made the underperforming druid cry, right?</p>
<p>So, at long last, my point: There are good players, and there are bad players. And there are otherwise good guilds that let bad players hang around and underperform because those bad players are women, where if they had been men they&#8217;d be out of the raid group. Which, in the long run, does no one any good.</p>
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		<title>By: Morning Dish - First Links and V Day &#171; Sauteed Sunfish</title>
		<link>http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2009/02/11/girls-hate-chuck-norris-on-women-and-raiding-guilds/comment-page-2/#comment-18073</link>
		<dc:creator>Morning Dish - First Links and V Day &#171; Sauteed Sunfish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Feb 2009 19:21:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.worldofmatticus.com/?p=3640#comment-18073</guid>
		<description>[...] of Matt-who-lives-on-NZ-with-Gal is sporting a great post about female gaming and the general female experience, written by one of his co-bloggers.Ã‚Â  Sydera is also a tree, so extra props and druid love to [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of Matt-who-lives-on-NZ-with-Gal is sporting a great post about female gaming and the general female experience, written by one of his co-bloggers.Ã‚Â  Sydera is also a tree, so extra props and druid love to [...]</p>
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		<title>By: I find the most sensuous part of a woman to be teh boobiez &#171; Holy Dueg!</title>
		<link>http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2009/02/11/girls-hate-chuck-norris-on-women-and-raiding-guilds/comment-page-2/#comment-18024</link>
		<dc:creator>I find the most sensuous part of a woman to be teh boobiez &#171; Holy Dueg!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Feb 2009 06:26:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.worldofmatticus.com/?p=3640#comment-18024</guid>
		<description>[...] Matticus, I came across an article written by Ã‚Â SyderaÃ‚Â which you can view in it&#8217;s entirety here. Ã‚Â Her post in general covers what a lot of women have come to expect being prominent members in [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Matticus, I came across an article written by Ã‚Â SyderaÃ‚Â which you can view in it&#8217;s entirety here. Ã‚Â Her post in general covers what a lot of women have come to expect being prominent members in [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Arkhen</title>
		<link>http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2009/02/11/girls-hate-chuck-norris-on-women-and-raiding-guilds/comment-page-2/#comment-18006</link>
		<dc:creator>Arkhen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Feb 2009 17:04:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.worldofmatticus.com/?p=3640#comment-18006</guid>
		<description>I blame Matticus period</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I blame Matticus period</p>
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		<title>By: wow guides</title>
		<link>http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2009/02/11/girls-hate-chuck-norris-on-women-and-raiding-guilds/comment-page-2/#comment-17998</link>
		<dc:creator>wow guides</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Feb 2009 13:43:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.worldofmatticus.com/?p=3640#comment-17998</guid>
		<description>I have to admit secretly that I like playing with women more then with men (children?) because they seem to be less &quot;stressed&quot; about the game. 

It&#039;s probably a generalizing, but I don&#039;t seem to remember ever hearing a women shout on vent on other players, even if they really did&#039;nt like something. And on wipes they tend to want to learn more on how to perform better then to blidly start accusing others.

At least that&#039;s my experience... So I&#039;m more relaxed when playing with women over all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to admit secretly that I like playing with women more then with men (children?) because they seem to be less &#8220;stressed&#8221; about the game. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s probably a generalizing, but I don&#8217;t seem to remember ever hearing a women shout on vent on other players, even if they really did&#8217;nt like something. And on wipes they tend to want to learn more on how to perform better then to blidly start accusing others.</p>
<p>At least that&#8217;s my experience&#8230; So I&#8217;m more relaxed when playing with women over all.</p>
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