This is a behind the scenes look on the Conquest forums detailing loot factors that are taken into account during loot council disputes. Some readers expressed interest in learning more about the specifics and here they are.
Loot is the single biggest headache involved with raiding. If you are a person that values yourself over the guild, then you want to reassess why you are in this guild, or why you want to join this guild. Ask yourself "do I want gear to raid or do I want to raid for gear?" Hopefully, you are a person who will choose the first option. If all you want is to raid for gear, then Conquest is probably not for you.
Nothing can avoid disagreements over gear. The Loot Council itself has an odd number of members specifically to avoid a deadlock on a piece of gear. Please keep in mind; we will do it as fairly as possible. If you felt you were treated unfairly and made a mistake, place yourself in an officer’s position and look at it from that angle.
If you still feel we error, please get in touch with Mallet and discuss it with him. Unfortunately, we cannot reverse decisions unless the item was erroneously awarded (as in mislooted, which can only be fixed via tickets). But your thoughts will be taken into account for the future.
How to express interest
Say Interested – If the item is a significant upgrade for you in your current spec and role. Best in slot also applies.
Say Pass – If the item is a minor upgrade or you’d like it for an off spec.
Say nothing – If you have zero interest at all in the item.
A countdown will be applied. At the end of it, there will be a dash (-). Interest expressed well after the dash will not be factored into account (unless there was no one interested at all during the countdown).
Note: If you equip a green to ninja gear and attempt to influence the council, you will be gkicked.
The gear reward process
5 members consists of the Loot Council. They each have their own individual personality and are 5 different players. Each council member has 1 vote used to decide who receives an item if there are multiple players interested in an item.
6 Influential factors
Current rank and position: Initiates and Subs will not get loot assigned to them if there are members in the raid with Raider status that has interest. This is to prevent people from joining, getting a few pieces of loot, and then leaving. It is basically a form of DKP. It forces people to have a vested interest in the guild to receive gear. This may be overlooked based on performance, attendance, or the amount of loot already received during that raid. To attain Raider status a person must be a member for a few weeks and attended (or been on vent and available) a minimum of three raids per week.
Attendance: Raid attendance is extremely important. If players aren’t here to raid, they’re not going to be able to contribute. Remember that loot drops will be awarded in order to be as effective as possible. This means there is a higher chance that a player who attends 3-5 times a week will get an item over a player who only shows up once a week.
Effectiveness: Is it effective for the guild as a whole? Will you be able to utilize it and ensure that it does not become useless? We want to ensure that items aren’t going to be wasted by being awarded to alts or off specs unless there is no main interest. Paladins looking to obtain DPS Plate gear aren’t going to get it if they’re in raids to heal. It does not maximize the effectiveness of the item if it is not being used.
Current items: A player still wearing Heroic or Normal Naxx level gear is going to have a higher chance of being awarded an item. Keep in mind that this will not always be the case. In certain situations, while the item in question may be a larger upgrade for a newer player, it could be awarded to a veteran player who has been in there for weeks or months on end trying to get the item.
Equal distribution: Loot will be distributed as equally as possible to the appropriate classes that need them (at least, we’ll attempt to). It is unlikely for players to receive more than one item from a boss. But it is entirely possible for players to receive multiple items in one run. We cannot control what items a boss drops. The last thing we want to do is shard a piece.
Set bonuses: With certain classes, some T7.5 bonuses are just plain awesome to have. If you have an odd number of set pieces (like 1 or 3 set pieces), we want nothing more than to help activate them.
Self improvement and teamwork
The main tanks in the guild are able to talk amongst themselves and figure out who needs upgrades over the other first. They do this purely through communication and cooperation by figuring out their weaknesses and identifying the items that benefit them the most. When tank items drop, they are able to compromise.
I encourage other players to do the same with the other classes or other players wearing similar armor types. As an example, I try to work with the other Priest and clothies to see who can benefit more.
90% of loot drops is handled informally among our members. They all take turns passing and are aware who can benefit items the most. It’s the 10% where loot council has to step in and make a decision. The trend here is that it ends up mostly being trinkets, rings, or weapons.
* Note: Anyone is free to take this post and modify or use accordingly for their own guild. Yes, you have permission. Don’t have to email and ask.
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[...] The only place a loot council should have is applying common sense for the best interests of the guild to the decision on who should roll on drops. Basically ensuring that nobody rolls on off spec stuff while main specs could use it, or nobody with better gear rolls on a downgrade by accident.” – A comment on a great blog, “World of Matticus“. [...]
[...] you’re running a Loot Council, a points-based system, or even some kind of Rochambeau craziness, you should still take into [...]
66 Comments
My guild swapped to a loot council system when we started raiding ‘officially’ just after Christmas. The GM didn’t want people turning down minor upgrades because of the DKP cost involved, and so on. And honestly, I’m really pleased with how it’s been going.
The tanks have a list of who gets what loot, and while that’s harder for the healers to do, since we have to share with all the casters, everyone has generally been very fair about it. It’s really showing who in the guild is in it for themselves, and who’s trying to improve the performance of the guild as a whole. And everyone gets loot, not just the people who were undergeared. The leaders make sure of that, and I trust them to do what’s best for the guild.
“@apokteino – Conquest LC is not intended to be “objective†or “fair  LC makes the subjective decision on what they think is best for the guild.”
i think you’ve pretty much summed up why people have a problem with LC… they expect (and deserve?) to be rewarded fairly and objectively for their contribution to the guild.
@ Matt – Don’t let negative people or total nutjobs like Sisisenor make you second guess yourself for one minute. You have to take each comment for what it’s worth and move on.
If Loot Council works for your guild (and it does for many guilds) then stick with it. Nothing wrong with that.
I am also in a progression guild and We use dkp and LC.
First, DKP is used for anyone who wants a drop for their MAIN spec: they must speak up.
Second, whoever has the most dkp gets it.
Third, if noone wants for MAIN spec it goes to LC.
Fourth, all who want for off spec must speak up and name what spec they want to use it for.
Fifth, LC decides.
Works well for us.
Hey guys, they just said that loot council only has to step in 10% of the time, if 90% of the gear is basically pre-decided on before the run even begins, then this system will work forever.
There are of course pros and cons to this, if you have 5 clothies, all deciding that certain gear is best for certain classes, then the peer pressure comes into effect, 1 or 2 might not agree but they feel they have to go along with the rest. This usually leads to /gquit’s and arguments later.
But in any good guild, the officers/leader should be able to iron these out, and let all members know their opinion is wanted and will be given weight in decision making.
@ apokteino, I have to agree with your friend, if the thinking is similar, I hate when I spend hours and hours farming heroics/mats to make gear and buy gear to improve my character to the point of doing TOP performance in raids, only to have people that just ding 80, and stand around waiting to get their hands held through raids and of course the items are a bigger upgrade for someone that hasn’t done a heroic or crafted any gear at 80, so you lose out, all your work is to basically gear out a slackass.
Loot Council makes me a happy panda.
Kittss last blog post..So Close, Yet So Far
I find it amusing that some people get so worked up about loot systems that they cease to be civil. Has always /boggled me. I have been in systems that used DKP – worked most of the time, been in loot council systems – worked most of the time and now we just random /roll for all instances – has worked almost all the time. So if a system works for someone more power to them. I think people like Sisinoer should get a better perspective and let other be.
@Matticus
I think it’s fairly clear why someone would pass over a minor upgrade. You’ve mentioned that the size of the upgrade is one factor in determining who gets what. If a person has the 3rd best weapon and the 2nd best weapon drops, he’ll be tempted to pass over it, thinking that if the #1 weapon drops, he won’t get it. This is even more pronounced when that #1 weapon is clearly the best. The urge to have the best and be the best is prevalent in every high-end progression guild. It’s not a major leap to think that these types of raiders might try to massage the system to get the best gear.
Also, people won’t always come to you first when they have a loot disagreement. You and the LC hold the key to all future loot that person might get. That’s a lot of power and the person might not feel comfortable complaining. You might get angry with them and unconsciously hold it against them in future decisions. I’m not saying you would, I’m just saying why people might not feel that they can talk to you about such things. First thing they’ll usually do is complain about the decision to their close friends. If it made them really angry, it could lead to a whole clique of friends secretly fuming against the LC’s decision. The bad thing here is that it doesn’t matter if the decision was the right one. You’re still going to get blamed and may not know anything about it until the drama is at your doorstep.
Currently top-end raiding is fairly drama free for all guilds. The only problem I see is keeping your members motivated until Ulduar comes out. Loot is easy to get and falling from the sky for just about everyone. I’m not saying your LC will fail, I’m just saying that LC is an inherently flawed system and it’s better to know what caused other LC’s to fail so you can hopefully recognize and avoid those pitfalls when they happen to you.
1. Don’t get upset over comments. As Bella had pointed out, it’s not about winning. I respect your sincerity and effort to produce good posts, and there is nothing wrong with sharing what ideas/systems you know are good.
2. Comments are important to read as well. When people disagree with you, they present a view that you’ve not experienced (for example, some mentioned that LC may not work effectively in casual guilds). Obviously, you want to skip over insulting comments (really, people? why stoop to childish name-calling?).
3. Perhaps it’s worthwhile looking into guild types and loot systems that work with them. You’ve written posts on guild etiquettes, and I think loot is just part of it. If everyone in the guild knows what the guild is about and understands their roles, then honestly any system will work. Yes, nobody is truly selfless, but any mature person will know that being greedy only destroys the guild in the long term.
4. Skipping minor upgrade is an issue right now since content is easy. Why get a 0.5% upgrade on farm content when you can raid next week and go towards the 2% upgrade? Especially for casual guilds, they’re not about min/maxing, and therefore have no incentives on requesting minor upgrades.
Come Ulduar time, a different system will be needed because the content will be harder, and any upgrade over T7 should be applied (sharding would be very unwise), if the guild desires progression at all.
Anyways, thanks again for your posts. They’re always enjoyable (even if some are disagreeable).
@Trinia I do not disagree with you that players should be awarded with their best-in-slot items since it would be very beneficial to the guild, but that is just one aspect to look at. Also, you seem to be putting more weight on this one aspect so I can understand why you would disagree with loot distribution. At the same time, we have players of all roles in LC that would have this piece of information for the respective roles and bring that knowledge up to the LC if the time comes. We cannot just weight on best-in-slot solely as you are advocating. As for myself, many best-in-slot items for me are cloth so I have a lot of competition, but I do not deserve it more than anyone else. Lastly one tends to criticize someone’s ideals once one has been jilted, but in the end, every guild is different and they continue to exist because whatever policies they used, it works for them.
@ Ice
I personally don’t necessarily believe everyone should be awarded their best in slot items over someone that it isn’t for. My whole issue with that is if loot council is supposed to decide what is best for one class vs. another they should know what is best for him. One of the major arguments I’ve heard for implementing LC is that LC may know what item is better for a player than they know themselves.
I guess I should go find the previous post on this website that states that.
I don’ t truly believe that LC can gauge that if they don’t have a standard set even if the standard is contestable.
Quoted from Syd’s Guide to Building Guilds. About LC:
“This type of system is designed to optimize gear drops by placing them in the hands of those who will have most use for them. This may sound like the best players receive every item, but in practice, this is not true. A well-functioning Loot Council uses gear drops both to reward players for excellent performance and to help raise players to the group standard. Sometimes–perhaps often–the Council will reward the weakest player in a class and spec. All decisions are made for the good of the group, and no good items are sharded. Each member of the Loot Council must be extremely well-informed about the loot tables themselves and about the needs, wants, and skills of the player base. If a player on the Loot Council is interested in a gear drop, he or she generally bows out of the discussion on the item in question.”
@Trinia I am going to disagree with you and here is why
We are trying to build a guild were the members already understand what is best in slot for them and others they compete with
I can tell you right now that I compete with 3 others for Plate. 2 of them and myself have a really good understanding of what is the best for each of us and the 3rd person is coming along nicely as well.
I do not want to have to think for people when it comes to gear. I want them to take the responsiblity of researching their class and taking that decision out of the loot council’s class.
Its also up to you as a member to talk to those people making bad decisions and refer them to the proper resources
I am not really too concerned with “Best in slot” items at this point. I will wait till ulduar too voice that opinion when the time comes(though I do voice that already in officer chat for loot). I am more interested in seeing how people react to others trying to get gear.