Comments on: Stare Decisis in Loot Council http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2008/12/19/stare-decisis-in-loot-council/ Practical advice for World of Warcraft healers and leaders Thu, 09 Feb 2012 07:13:30 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Matticus http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2008/12/19/stare-decisis-in-loot-council/comment-page-1/#comment-14029 Matticus Sun, 21 Dec 2008 18:22:38 +0000 http://www.worldofmatticus.com/?p=3049#comment-14029 Santyn: No, that was just a result of human error. Santyn: No, that was just a result of human error.

]]> By: Santyn http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2008/12/19/stare-decisis-in-loot-council/comment-page-1/#comment-14026 Santyn Sun, 21 Dec 2008 16:18:13 +0000 http://www.worldofmatticus.com/?p=3049#comment-14026 The reason I question any transparency comes from another post by Amava. http://amavaknowsaggro.blogspot.com/2008/12/holding-your-pants-up-with-style.html It may be wrong assumption on my part, but it seemed there was some confusion about loot that was left to the guild members to figure out. <abbr><em>Santyns last blog post..<a href="http://www.lethalshots.com/2008/12/21/tag-im-it/" rel="nofollow">Tag! I’m It!!!</a></abbr></em> The reason I question any transparency comes from another post by Amava.

http://amavaknowsaggro.blogspot.com/2008/12/holding-your-pants-up-with-style.html

It may be wrong assumption on my part, but it seemed there was some confusion about loot that was left to the guild members to figure out.

Santyns last blog post..Tag! I’m It!!!

]]> By: Matticus http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2008/12/19/stare-decisis-in-loot-council/comment-page-1/#comment-14000 Matticus Sat, 20 Dec 2008 01:52:58 +0000 http://www.worldofmatticus.com/?p=3049#comment-14000 Santyn: I see I'll have to write a post on this. You're assuming that there's no transparency in this. 4 out of 5 times, theres only 1 person interested in an item and everyone else passes. Our hands are literally tied there because no one else has expressed interest. The times we DO have to weigh in, at the end of the loot council discussion I'll usually pipe up on vent with something like "Resto Shaman had 3 piece and he's done a slam dunk job keeping the raid alive so we're going to finish out his bonus because it's amazingly good" or "Death Knight just Gripped a mob away from Gluth buying us a few precious seconds to kill it leading to a progression kill" or "Joe Mage hasn't gotten a piece of tier yet, we're going to get him started with a set of gloves tonight" etc, etc. In regards to rules, I don't like the word fair. Because what's fair for one person may not be fair for the other. The players that signed onto the guild do so knowing that loot will be distributed EFFECTIVELY which is the point I want to underscore. I don't determine who gets what loot. The council determines who gets what loot FIRST so that the overall raid will benefit. "Fair" and "equal" are these catchphrases that are used to make guilds feel better about themselves about being "right". We're in the business to raid, and we want to get far in this game fast. Not every case is going to be judged with the same standard because no two cases are going to be alike. Human discretion is a powerful thing. Everything has to be evaluated on a case by case basis. Santyn: I see I’ll have to write a post on this. You’re assuming that there’s no transparency in this. 4 out of 5 times, theres only 1 person interested in an item and everyone else passes. Our hands are literally tied there because no one else has expressed interest. The times we DO have to weigh in, at the end of the loot council discussion I’ll usually pipe up on vent with something like “Resto Shaman had 3 piece and he’s done a slam dunk job keeping the raid alive so we’re going to finish out his bonus because it’s amazingly good” or “Death Knight just Gripped a mob away from Gluth buying us a few precious seconds to kill it leading to a progression kill” or “Joe Mage hasn’t gotten a piece of tier yet, we’re going to get him started with a set of gloves tonight” etc, etc.

In regards to rules, I don’t like the word fair. Because what’s fair for one person may not be fair for the other. The players that signed onto the guild do so knowing that loot will be distributed EFFECTIVELY which is the point I want to underscore. I don’t determine who gets what loot. The council determines who gets what loot FIRST so that the overall raid will benefit. “Fair” and “equal” are these catchphrases that are used to make guilds feel better about themselves about being “right”. We’re in the business to raid, and we want to get far in this game fast. Not every case is going to be judged with the same standard because no two cases are going to be alike. Human discretion is a powerful thing. Everything has to be evaluated on a case by case basis.

]]> By: Santyn http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2008/12/19/stare-decisis-in-loot-council/comment-page-1/#comment-13999 Santyn Sat, 20 Dec 2008 01:24:36 +0000 http://www.worldofmatticus.com/?p=3049#comment-13999 I read both yours and Amava's blog, and would just like to say that it can be interesting reading both sides of the situation. I do agree with Amava on the situation with the roll, and it is nice to see that you have also seen the problem with it. I really hope that the Loot Council method continues to work out for Conquest, but I fear that it will eventually fail. Loot should be awarded by the use of a fair and transparent set of rules. By using a Lot Council, you have removed the transparency of the process, leading the rest of the raid to wonder how the Council came to their decision, which also can lead to questions about the fairness. If I were in a guild who used the Council method, I would expect them to document their reasoning for each decision and make it available for the rest of the guild to look over. This documentation could be used by the guild as a whole to audit the Loot Council to make sure that the system stays fair. Just my 2 cents worth. <abbr><em>Santyns last blog post..<a href="http://www.lethalshots.com/2008/12/19/breaking-news/" rel="nofollow">Breaking News</a></abbr></em> I read both yours and Amava’s blog, and would just like to say that it can be interesting reading both sides of the situation.

I do agree with Amava on the situation with the roll, and it is nice to see that you have also seen the problem with it.

I really hope that the Loot Council method continues to work out for Conquest, but I fear that it will eventually fail. Loot should be awarded by the use of a fair and transparent set of rules. By using a Lot Council, you have removed the transparency of the process, leading the rest of the raid to wonder how the Council came to their decision, which also can lead to questions about the fairness.

If I were in a guild who used the Council method, I would expect them to document their reasoning for each decision and make it available for the rest of the guild to look over. This documentation could be used by the guild as a whole to audit the Loot Council to make sure that the system stays fair.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Santyns last blog post..Breaking News

]]> By: Matticus http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2008/12/19/stare-decisis-in-loot-council/comment-page-1/#comment-13993 Matticus Fri, 19 Dec 2008 23:18:19 +0000 http://www.worldofmatticus.com/?p=3049#comment-13993 @DArcMattr: That's a snarky comment, if I ever read one. Wanna elaborate more on that? Do we go through loot tables for bosses? Yes. Do we know what type of loot our guys are packing? Yes. Can we control what loot drops? No. I never said we were perfect. @DArcMattr: That’s a snarky comment, if I ever read one. Wanna elaborate more on that? Do we go through loot tables for bosses? Yes. Do we know what type of loot our guys are packing? Yes. Can we control what loot drops? No.

I never said we were perfect.

]]> By: DArcMattr http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2008/12/19/stare-decisis-in-loot-council/comment-page-1/#comment-13991 DArcMattr Fri, 19 Dec 2008 22:28:57 +0000 http://www.worldofmatticus.com/?p=3049#comment-13991 Since the loot tables for bosses are known, and the current state of your raid members' gearing is known, couldn't you at least have identified these possible points of conflict before you walk into the raid, no matter what your standards? Since the loot tables for bosses are known, and the current state of your raid members’ gearing is known, couldn’t you at least have identified these possible points of conflict before you walk into the raid, no matter what your standards?

]]> By: Lakland http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2008/12/19/stare-decisis-in-loot-council/comment-page-1/#comment-13986 Lakland Fri, 19 Dec 2008 20:41:43 +0000 http://www.worldofmatticus.com/?p=3049#comment-13986 You are not greedy to a fault. I swear if you pass on one more purple (while wearing a blue) so we can give someone a lateral upgrade, I'm gonna pitch a fit. You are a DKP whore in your own guild - THAT DOESN'T USE DKP! You are not greedy to a fault. I swear if you pass on one more purple (while wearing a blue) so we can give someone a lateral upgrade, I’m gonna pitch a fit. You are a DKP whore in your own guild – THAT DOESN’T USE DKP!

]]> By: Matticus http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2008/12/19/stare-decisis-in-loot-council/comment-page-1/#comment-13983 Matticus Fri, 19 Dec 2008 20:18:03 +0000 http://www.worldofmatticus.com/?p=3049#comment-13983 Rohan: And on that, we differ. It's true I haven't finished investing yet, but we're almost there. This is my personal belief when we're discussing loot. The other LC members may agree or disagree accordingly. I think rewarding players for the hard work and effort that they've put into raids is a good thing. It shows my commitment to players who do their best and truly step it up on certain nights. It plays a factor when deciding between two players who are equally gear levelled in a certain spot. Don't mistake this to mean that I wouldn't award an epic to a green geared mage. If there's no one else that'll really benefit from it, I'll do it. My stance on rewarding is just ONE of the things that I take into consideration. 90% of the time during raids, loot sorts itself out. My players know each other now and trust each other. They'll intentionally pass when they feel someone in the raid benefits. None of them are inherently greedy (except me ^^). Rohan: And on that, we differ. It’s true I haven’t finished investing yet, but we’re almost there. This is my personal belief when we’re discussing loot. The other LC members may agree or disagree accordingly. I think rewarding players for the hard work and effort that they’ve put into raids is a good thing. It shows my commitment to players who do their best and truly step it up on certain nights. It plays a factor when deciding between two players who are equally gear levelled in a certain spot.

Don’t mistake this to mean that I wouldn’t award an epic to a green geared mage. If there’s no one else that’ll really benefit from it, I’ll do it. My stance on rewarding is just ONE of the things that I take into consideration.

90% of the time during raids, loot sorts itself out. My players know each other now and trust each other. They’ll intentionally pass when they feel someone in the raid benefits. None of them are inherently greedy (except me ^^).

]]> By: kyrilean http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2008/12/19/stare-decisis-in-loot-council/comment-page-1/#comment-13982 kyrilean Fri, 19 Dec 2008 20:11:21 +0000 http://www.worldofmatticus.com/?p=3049#comment-13982 @ Kitts - that's a great idea! <abbr><em>kyrileans last blog post..<a href="http://casualhardcore.wordpress.com/2008/12/19/mr-pinchys-magical-crawdad-box/" rel="nofollow">Mr. Pinchy’s Magical Crawdad Box</a></abbr></em> @ Kitts – that’s a great idea!

kyrileans last blog post..Mr. Pinchy’s Magical Crawdad Box

]]> By: Rohan http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2008/12/19/stare-decisis-in-loot-council/comment-page-1/#comment-13974 Rohan Fri, 19 Dec 2008 18:52:16 +0000 http://www.worldofmatticus.com/?p=3049#comment-13974 I think using Loot Council to "reward" people is a mistake that will hurt you, Matticus. Loot Council is a <a href="http://blessingofkings.blogspot.com/2007/04/two-views-of-loot.html" rel="nofollow">Loot as Investment</a> system. LC sets out to be deliberately unfair in awarding loot, in order to maximize the strength of the raid and hence progression. Handing out loot as "rewards" to people, no matter how much they deserve the reward, undercuts the system. Further, LC is fragile. It only works for as long as you have the trust of the membership. "Rewarding" people can break that trust because everyone feels that they deserve to be rewarded. Your guild is young, and is probably still in the high of downing new bosses, People are willing to take a lot of things on faith at this point. But eventually faith runs out, and you get to see if the structures you built are actually stable. Finally, you haven't finished investing. There's still Sarth+3 right now, and Uldar coming up. <abbr><em>Rohans last blog post..<a href="http://blessingofkings.blogspot.com/2008/12/my-ideal-guild.html" rel="nofollow">My Ideal Guild</a></abbr></em> I think using Loot Council to “reward” people is a mistake that will hurt you, Matticus.

Loot Council is a Loot as Investment system. LC sets out to be deliberately unfair in awarding loot, in order to maximize the strength of the raid and hence progression. Handing out loot as “rewards” to people, no matter how much they deserve the reward, undercuts the system.

Further, LC is fragile. It only works for as long as you have the trust of the membership. “Rewarding” people can break that trust because everyone feels that they deserve to be rewarded. Your guild is young, and is probably still in the high of downing new bosses, People are willing to take a lot of things on faith at this point. But eventually faith runs out, and you get to see if the structures you built are actually stable.

Finally, you haven’t finished investing. There’s still Sarth+3 right now, and Uldar coming up.

Rohans last blog post..My Ideal Guild

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