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	<title>Comments on: SYTYCB: WoW is Not a Zero Sum Game</title>
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	<link>http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2008/08/28/sytycb-wow-is-not-a-zero-sum-game/</link>
	<description>Practical advice for World of Warcraft healers and leaders</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 07:13:30 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Istvaan Shogaatsu</title>
		<link>http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2008/08/28/sytycb-wow-is-not-a-zero-sum-game/comment-page-1/#comment-12120</link>
		<dc:creator>Istvaan Shogaatsu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:00:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.worldofmatticus.com/?p=1380#comment-12120</guid>
		<description>Well, of COURSE we wouldn&#039;t hesitate to steal in real life, if it was this easy to get away with. Stealing is fun, Tankette. You see stuff that someone else owns, and if you like it, you take it. Awesome! 

Unfortunately, in real life, there are more serious consequences than in a game - so we don&#039;t steal in real life. There are no virtual prisons in WoW, or Eve or what have you. No virtual policemen, no criminal records, no virtual sexually abusive 390 lb cellmates named Nipples. That&#039;s why we steal in games. That&#039;s why other folks shoot other people in games. In games it&#039;s okay to commit crimes that it isn&#039;t okay to commit in the real world.

That&#039;s a very important distinction to make.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, of COURSE we wouldn&#8217;t hesitate to steal in real life, if it was this easy to get away with. Stealing is fun, Tankette. You see stuff that someone else owns, and if you like it, you take it. Awesome! </p>
<p>Unfortunately, in real life, there are more serious consequences than in a game &#8211; so we don&#8217;t steal in real life. There are no virtual prisons in WoW, or Eve or what have you. No virtual policemen, no criminal records, no virtual sexually abusive 390 lb cellmates named Nipples. That&#8217;s why we steal in games. That&#8217;s why other folks shoot other people in games. In games it&#8217;s okay to commit crimes that it isn&#8217;t okay to commit in the real world.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s a very important distinction to make.</p>
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		<title>By: Tankette</title>
		<link>http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2008/08/28/sytycb-wow-is-not-a-zero-sum-game/comment-page-1/#comment-10981</link>
		<dc:creator>Tankette</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 17:41:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.worldofmatticus.com/?p=1380#comment-10981</guid>
		<description>I think these people would not hesitate to steal in real life. You are stealing something in real life when you steal in the game, the time and effort of other players.

Tankettes last blog post..&lt;a href=&quot;http://tankette.wordpress.com/2008/08/29/gius-goes-from-holy-to-shadow/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Gius goes from holy to shadow&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think these people would not hesitate to steal in real life. You are stealing something in real life when you steal in the game, the time and effort of other players.</p>
<p>Tankettes last blog post..<a href="http://tankette.wordpress.com/2008/08/29/gius-goes-from-holy-to-shadow/" rel="nofollow">Gius goes from holy to shadow</a></p>
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		<title>By: Apoptygmaa</title>
		<link>http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2008/08/28/sytycb-wow-is-not-a-zero-sum-game/comment-page-1/#comment-10978</link>
		<dc:creator>Apoptygmaa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 16:43:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.worldofmatticus.com/?p=1380#comment-10978</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m going to take the minority opinion on this, and say that in the majority of cases, guild bank thefts are the result of either carelessness or neglect by a guild&#039;s leadership. 

There is an individual on our server who has the reputation as being a guild bank thief. Now, I declined him when he applied for the guild I administer, I have no proof of his alleged misdeeds. Yet sure enough, it&#039;s been reported and repeated often enough, but every time I run into him loitering in Orgrimmar he&#039;s sporting a new guild tag. Too many guilds, in an effort to fill their membership rolls, overplay the Guild Bank as a &quot;value-add,&quot; and in such cases it is very easy for enthusiasm and desire for more members trump commen sense. I&#039;ll put it bluntly: excercise common sense, and your chances of getting ripped off by a thief are virtually nil. I&#039;ll go a step further and say that by maximising common sense and taking the proper precautions, you can further mitigate the impact of a disgruntled guildie turning into a thief. 

To illustrate, I set my guild up with the following general classifications for members. 

Initiate: Brand new, can see only the first tab of the bank (the &quot;provisional&quot; tab, for trade goods, consumables, bags, and other general-utility items). Can deposit, cannot withdraw.

Enlisted (3 ranks, Corporal through Sergeant): Can see all tabs, and make deposits. Sergeants have limited access to the lower item tiers (withdraw 1 item/stack per day). Can use guild funds for armour repairs (scaled by rank).

Commissioned (4 ranks, Lieutenant through Commandant): Has increasing access to bank, not to exceed 3 items/day at lower item tiers, and 1/day at the highest. Brigadier (second-highest rank) and Commandant (unique to GM) have much more liberal access to all tiers. Only Commandant can withdraw currency directly. 

In a nutshell, then, in order to get access to the guild bank that would be in any way lucrative (the last tier), they would have already had to put in so much time and contribution to the guild that they more or less would have &#039;paid&#039; for the items they stole with a ton of service in developing the guild. It would take a serious sleeper agent to break the guild bank, and if they are willing to put in that kind of time and labour, I&#039;d almost salute them (see: Guiding Hand Social Club). If they didn&#039;t have the patience for this, they might withdraw lower-calibre items for a few days before the pattern was detected and they were either questioned or removed. And since all but the Initiate can see all the tabs, items can be freely requested through an Officer (which, in turn, counts towards that Officer&#039;s own daily withdrawal quota). 

It may seem restrictive in theory, but it works great in practice and the Soldiers in the guild are pleased with the security of the arrangement. As GM I don&#039;t mind a bit fulfilling &#039;orders&#039; from the lesser ranks, indeed I am happy to see the fruits of the guild&#039;s collective labours being put to good use!

But even outside our guild&#039;s model, a little common sense goes a long way. 

&gt; DON&#039;T give easy access to the bank for non-officers or those who have not established both time and trust
&gt; DO be skeptical of would-be members who ask a lot of questions about the Bank policies
&gt; DON&#039;T automatically bump up alts to the same privileges as mains. Some guilds use a seperate rank for all alts, others leave them at the bottom. Ours, alts need to &#039;grind rank&#039; just like any other main. 
&gt; DO be cautious in sorting and stacking. Is there really any need for all your Primal Whatevers to be in a single, convenient stack? Set reasonable stack withdrawal levels, and place a few small &#039;stacks&#039; of valuable items in the accessible tab. That way you limit your exposure. &quot;Hey Malthorius, you&#039;ve been taking out stacks of two Primal Shadows for each of the last three days. Did you need some guidance on how to farm them yourself?&quot; Same applies for any stackable commodity. GM&#039;s and Officers can always store more on their personal bank alts, and replenish the guild bank as needed. 

Yes, it&#039;s a wall-of-text-crit, but guild administration is one of my passions. And please don&#039;t let me give you the impression that I&#039;m blaming the victim and exonerating the thieves. 

They&#039;re still scum. 

But with some preparation, GM&#039;s can minimise their risk.

Apoptygmaas last blog post..&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.guildportal.com/Guild.aspx?GuildID=226761&amp;News=890305&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Army Meets as the Drums of War Beat Steadily&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m going to take the minority opinion on this, and say that in the majority of cases, guild bank thefts are the result of either carelessness or neglect by a guild&#8217;s leadership. </p>
<p>There is an individual on our server who has the reputation as being a guild bank thief. Now, I declined him when he applied for the guild I administer, I have no proof of his alleged misdeeds. Yet sure enough, it&#8217;s been reported and repeated often enough, but every time I run into him loitering in Orgrimmar he&#8217;s sporting a new guild tag. Too many guilds, in an effort to fill their membership rolls, overplay the Guild Bank as a &#8220;value-add,&#8221; and in such cases it is very easy for enthusiasm and desire for more members trump commen sense. I&#8217;ll put it bluntly: excercise common sense, and your chances of getting ripped off by a thief are virtually nil. I&#8217;ll go a step further and say that by maximising common sense and taking the proper precautions, you can further mitigate the impact of a disgruntled guildie turning into a thief. </p>
<p>To illustrate, I set my guild up with the following general classifications for members. </p>
<p>Initiate: Brand new, can see only the first tab of the bank (the &#8220;provisional&#8221; tab, for trade goods, consumables, bags, and other general-utility items). Can deposit, cannot withdraw.</p>
<p>Enlisted (3 ranks, Corporal through Sergeant): Can see all tabs, and make deposits. Sergeants have limited access to the lower item tiers (withdraw 1 item/stack per day). Can use guild funds for armour repairs (scaled by rank).</p>
<p>Commissioned (4 ranks, Lieutenant through Commandant): Has increasing access to bank, not to exceed 3 items/day at lower item tiers, and 1/day at the highest. Brigadier (second-highest rank) and Commandant (unique to GM) have much more liberal access to all tiers. Only Commandant can withdraw currency directly. </p>
<p>In a nutshell, then, in order to get access to the guild bank that would be in any way lucrative (the last tier), they would have already had to put in so much time and contribution to the guild that they more or less would have &#8216;paid&#8217; for the items they stole with a ton of service in developing the guild. It would take a serious sleeper agent to break the guild bank, and if they are willing to put in that kind of time and labour, I&#8217;d almost salute them (see: Guiding Hand Social Club). If they didn&#8217;t have the patience for this, they might withdraw lower-calibre items for a few days before the pattern was detected and they were either questioned or removed. And since all but the Initiate can see all the tabs, items can be freely requested through an Officer (which, in turn, counts towards that Officer&#8217;s own daily withdrawal quota). </p>
<p>It may seem restrictive in theory, but it works great in practice and the Soldiers in the guild are pleased with the security of the arrangement. As GM I don&#8217;t mind a bit fulfilling &#8216;orders&#8217; from the lesser ranks, indeed I am happy to see the fruits of the guild&#8217;s collective labours being put to good use!</p>
<p>But even outside our guild&#8217;s model, a little common sense goes a long way. </p>
<p>&gt; DON&#8217;T give easy access to the bank for non-officers or those who have not established both time and trust<br />
&gt; DO be skeptical of would-be members who ask a lot of questions about the Bank policies<br />
&gt; DON&#8217;T automatically bump up alts to the same privileges as mains. Some guilds use a seperate rank for all alts, others leave them at the bottom. Ours, alts need to &#8216;grind rank&#8217; just like any other main.<br />
&gt; DO be cautious in sorting and stacking. Is there really any need for all your Primal Whatevers to be in a single, convenient stack? Set reasonable stack withdrawal levels, and place a few small &#8216;stacks&#8217; of valuable items in the accessible tab. That way you limit your exposure. &#8220;Hey Malthorius, you&#8217;ve been taking out stacks of two Primal Shadows for each of the last three days. Did you need some guidance on how to farm them yourself?&#8221; Same applies for any stackable commodity. GM&#8217;s and Officers can always store more on their personal bank alts, and replenish the guild bank as needed. </p>
<p>Yes, it&#8217;s a wall-of-text-crit, but guild administration is one of my passions. And please don&#8217;t let me give you the impression that I&#8217;m blaming the victim and exonerating the thieves. </p>
<p>They&#8217;re still scum. </p>
<p>But with some preparation, GM&#8217;s can minimise their risk.</p>
<p>Apoptygmaas last blog post..<a href="http://www.guildportal.com/Guild.aspx?GuildID=226761&amp;News=890305" rel="nofollow">Army Meets as the Drums of War Beat Steadily</a></p>
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		<title>By: GoW</title>
		<link>http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2008/08/28/sytycb-wow-is-not-a-zero-sum-game/comment-page-1/#comment-10975</link>
		<dc:creator>GoW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 16:06:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.worldofmatticus.com/?p=1380#comment-10975</guid>
		<description>Great article. :)

GoWs last blog post..&lt;a href=&quot;http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/GroupsOfWords/~3/376337037/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Polytoons can be Bad&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great article. <img src='http://www.worldofmatticus.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>GoWs last blog post..<a href="http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/GroupsOfWords/~3/376337037/" rel="nofollow">Polytoons can be Bad</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Week 1: Matt and Wyn&#8217;s Critique (and a free blog tip) : World of Matticus</title>
		<link>http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2008/08/28/sytycb-wow-is-not-a-zero-sum-game/comment-page-1/#comment-10966</link>
		<dc:creator>Week 1: Matt and Wyn&#8217;s Critique (and a free blog tip) : World of Matticus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 15:07:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.worldofmatticus.com/?p=1380#comment-10966</guid>
		<description>[...] Veleda: WoW is Not a Zero Sum Game [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Veleda: WoW is Not a Zero Sum Game [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Veleda</title>
		<link>http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2008/08/28/sytycb-wow-is-not-a-zero-sum-game/comment-page-1/#comment-10960</link>
		<dc:creator>Veleda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 07:24:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.worldofmatticus.com/?p=1380#comment-10960</guid>
		<description>@ObiChad: Guild banks existed long before Blizzard gave us a mechanism for them.  I was an officer in guild with a fairly extensive bank before the Blizzard implementation.  Each of the officers devoted an alt or two to storage, and we used multipe add-ons to track the contents and coordinate with each other.

The biggest problem with the old system was that the holdings of each officer were only accessible by that officer.  We had an officer go missing for two months, at one point, and the portion of the bank on his alt was unavailable to us then.

The Blizzard implementation isn&#039;t without problems, and it does serve as a bit of a temptation for thieves, but overall, I think it&#039;s a big improvement from the old days.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ObiChad: Guild banks existed long before Blizzard gave us a mechanism for them.  I was an officer in guild with a fairly extensive bank before the Blizzard implementation.  Each of the officers devoted an alt or two to storage, and we used multipe add-ons to track the contents and coordinate with each other.</p>
<p>The biggest problem with the old system was that the holdings of each officer were only accessible by that officer.  We had an officer go missing for two months, at one point, and the portion of the bank on his alt was unavailable to us then.</p>
<p>The Blizzard implementation isn&#8217;t without problems, and it does serve as a bit of a temptation for thieves, but overall, I think it&#8217;s a big improvement from the old days.</p>
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		<title>By: ObiChad</title>
		<link>http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2008/08/28/sytycb-wow-is-not-a-zero-sum-game/comment-page-1/#comment-10956</link>
		<dc:creator>ObiChad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 04:11:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.worldofmatticus.com/?p=1380#comment-10956</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m really starting to believe that the guild bank may have done more harm than good. Argh.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m really starting to believe that the guild bank may have done more harm than good. Argh.</p>
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		<title>By: Joveta</title>
		<link>http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2008/08/28/sytycb-wow-is-not-a-zero-sum-game/comment-page-1/#comment-10941</link>
		<dc:creator>Joveta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 22:05:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.worldofmatticus.com/?p=1380#comment-10941</guid>
		<description>That sucks, and is getting unfortunately common.

I&#039;m glad stuff was resolved in the end.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That sucks, and is getting unfortunately common.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m glad stuff was resolved in the end.</p>
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		<title>By: Veleda</title>
		<link>http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2008/08/28/sytycb-wow-is-not-a-zero-sum-game/comment-page-1/#comment-10938</link>
		<dc:creator>Veleda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 21:55:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.worldofmatticus.com/?p=1380#comment-10938</guid>
		<description>@Matticus: Thanks!  And it&#039;s chord.  :)  Based on the notion that emotions were like musical notes, and something that resonates on multiple levels is analogous to playing a chord on a musical instrument.

@Jen and @pudds:  Yes, GMs were contacted.  After I wrote and submitted this, I heard that Blizzard had restored everything that had been stolen.  They&#039;re silent on what, if any, sanctions were levied against this player, though.  So, we can all calm down now.  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Matticus: Thanks!  And it&#8217;s chord.  <img src='http://www.worldofmatticus.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />   Based on the notion that emotions were like musical notes, and something that resonates on multiple levels is analogous to playing a chord on a musical instrument.</p>
<p>@Jen and @pudds:  Yes, GMs were contacted.  After I wrote and submitted this, I heard that Blizzard had restored everything that had been stolen.  They&#8217;re silent on what, if any, sanctions were levied against this player, though.  So, we can all calm down now.  <img src='http://www.worldofmatticus.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: pudds</title>
		<link>http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2008/08/28/sytycb-wow-is-not-a-zero-sum-game/comment-page-1/#comment-10933</link>
		<dc:creator>pudds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 21:26:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.worldofmatticus.com/?p=1380#comment-10933</guid>
		<description>GMs are generally willing to help with this, typically restoring the items and/or disciplining the offender.  Was a GM contacted in this case?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GMs are generally willing to help with this, typically restoring the items and/or disciplining the offender.  Was a GM contacted in this case?</p>
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