Minimum Class Stat Requirements for Karazhan
Posted on November 8, 2007 by Matticus!
Filed Under Personal Progression, Raiding, World of Warcraft
A dear friend asked me for some help a few days ago. She wanted to know what the minimum requirements are for new players looking to enter Karazhan. I’m not looking for numbers that will take down Prince on the first try. What I want are respectable numbers that players of any class can shoot for. I’m looking for ABSOLUTE MINIMUMS HERE. These are the kinds of numbers that will down Attumen after one try, Moroes after three, Maiden after two, and Curator after fifteen because they don’t have the gear for it.
These are the numbers that she has so far. Any recommendations or adjustments? I’ve modified the numbers for opinions on Holy Priests and Shamans. When I get a chance, I’m going to begin perusing the blogs of my other colleagues to see if they have any information that I can add to this list. Even a simple confirmation of numbers would be nice to see, so don’t be shy! (Note: Don’t mind the colors. I copied it directly off a forum)
SUGGESTED MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS TO START KARAZHAN
Warrior
Tank(MT):
12000 Armor, 12000 hp, 490 def., 15-30% Dodge/Parry
DPS:
1700 ap, 70 hit, 33% crit
Druid
Tank:
415 def with 3/3 Survival of the fittest, 12000 hp, 30% Dodge, 20k armor
(As suggested by Karthis)
DPS:
600 dmg, 15% crit (caster form), 75 mp/5, 75 hit
Heal:
+1000 heals, 100 mp/5
Rogue
1300 - 1400 ap, 90 hit, 20% crit
As suggested by mesczante
Priest
Heal:
6000+ health, 7500 mana, +1000 healing, 100 mp5
DPS:
6000 mana, +650 dmg, + 3-5% hit
(As suggested by MK)
Hunter
BM:
8000 hp, 6000 mana, 1450 ap, 17.5% crit, 75 hit
MM:
8000 hp, 6000 mana, 1750 ap, 17.5% crit 75 hit
Shammy
Resto:
950 - 1000 heals, 110 mp/5, 10% crit
Elemental:
+500 dmg, 20% crit
Enhancement:
1000 - 1200 ap, 20% crit, 8% hit
Mage
+600 dmg, 90 hit, 25% crit, 6000 hp and 7000 mana
(As suggested by Calandris)
Pally
Tank:
102.5% Total avoidance (dodge/parry/block)
490 def, 10500 hp, +100-150 dmg
Heal:
1000-1200 heals, 80-100 mp/5, 8000-9000 mana, 15-20% holy crit
Warlock
Affliction: 7000 hp, 6000 mana, +600 dmg, 90 hit
Destro/Demon: 7000 hp, 6000 mana, +600 dmg, 90 hit, 20% crit
Again, your comments and opinions will be greatly appreciated.
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I'm Matticus and I play a Dwarf Priest. My home is in Carnage, a raiding Guild. Every week, I log 11 hours raiding on Ner'Zuhl.
Wynthea is the Troll Priest with the best Mohawk on Nazjatar. Currently, I raid 5 nights a week, and PvP occasionally. I started working toward end-game in May 2007, and my guild is currently working through Sunwell. I've tried playing other classes, but Priests are my passion; I've found our racial spells an endless source of fun and frustration. I am extremely fond of Dwarves.... especially with Ketchup.
damage hit and crit for mages looks about right. HP for mages should be around 6K and mana around 7K
this can vary but i am going on the assumption of fire raid spec. Thats about what I entered Kara as.
Calandris - Priest
Necroleanan - Mage
Druid Tank:
Post suggests:
> 415 def with 3/3 Survival of the fittest, 12000 hp, 20% Dodge
I would recommend the following to start Kara:
415 defense (SotF is a must), 20k armor, 12k health, and 30% dodge
That’s about where I stood in mostly dungeon blues & quest greenies. Enchants may be required to hit the dodge…. but it’s needed.
The resto druid numbers look good. I pretty much meet them
I would suggest that all Hunters have at least 75 Hit
With 0 or little hit Hunters will see a significant decrease in Boss DPS
I think the MP5 is a little high for bare minimums for a HealPriest. I’d say 85-90 is a bare minimum and 120 would be good for the first half. The 1k healing is good.
[...] of Matticus has a brief writeup on the Minimum Class Stat Requirements for Karazhan. I just looked up Flint’s stats and with his current buffs he is definitely Kara ready. My [...]
The AP for BM hunters seems a bit high - though if you’ve stacked AP and neglected hit rating I suppose it roughly evens out.
I would drop all the healing numbers down to 900, and prolly drop the mp5 numbers as well to around 75-80mp5 for Paladins. Resto druids also don’t need nearly as much mp5, since, especially if they’re trees, they’re stacking a lot more spirit. You’re talking about “bare minimums here,” and if you go by blues and stuff, which is what most people are going to have when they first go in. The numbers you’re talking about look more like what people that have been doing heroics or Kara already would be around. We’ve been bringing in a lot more new healers into Kara recently and we’ve been doing just fine with people starting around at the 900 +heal range.
Thanks for all the input, guys! I’m going to make a few adjustments to the post later tonight and update it with your numbers. Still need a Warlock, a Rogue, Shadow Priest, and some others to confirm the numbers here…
As a relatively fresh level 70 Holy Priest this subject that occupies me. Not been in Kara and not attuned for it but I am building for it and running all the attunement dungeons I can.
Why aim for the minimum? I am working my way through your gear building list and love the +heal I am starting to generate (so thank you). Elitist Jerks opts for +1400 heal as a rule of thumb which sounds a sensible target for me.
The real minimums are not a question for the priest or individual character, but one for the whole raid. It strikes me (if Kara is like any other instance) if you are running with experienced geared Kara farmers you could go in fresh and green. If your party are mixed and fresh to the instance then you had better be well prepared gearwise.
http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2007/08/28/gearing-your-fresh-70-holy-priest-my-recommendations/
That’s my recommended gear list which sports about 1700+ healing. I’m attempting to build a list that shows what the minimums are for each class. This assumes a new Guild who does not have Kara on farm or anything like that. Chances are, there are some Guilds out there who have just formed and started raiding. Obviously the higher the numbers the better. If you’re running in with geared Kara farmers, you could run in there with grey’s (but I wouldn’t suggest it) =).
The rogue reqs. are WAY off for hit rating, i got through full kara with 120, starting is around 80-90, fairly easy to get with blues, i tried to get 220 without kara gear and its tough without sacrificing much damage
Finally got around to reading this. I’m okay on everything except Health. Somehow, need to trade some mana for health (no WONDER I always have so much mana left when I go *squish*).
Osprey
I’d put a disclaimer at that top specifying that this is all for UNBUFFED stats (no self-buffs!). And you should clarify if hit ratings are with or without talents included (or state where hit talents are required).
- I’d bump shadow priests up to 650 shadow damage.
- For warlocks: try to break it down by affliction and destro/demon. Affliction would be about the same as shadowpriests (but with more health, 7k). For destro/demon: 7k health, 600 dmg (fire or shadow, depending on spec), 20% crit.
Eh, I was thinking about putting a disclaimer up there but then I realized does it really matter? As long as you hit those numbers buffed or unbuffed you can do Kara either way.
I’ll ramp the SPriest damage.
I know next to nothing about other classes. I’ll split up the Warlock stuff as well.
Well, it matters because the only way I can meet the minimum is if I have a clear understanding of what it is .. ya know?
For example, if I am a warlock wanting to know if I meet the minimum, then I would want to know if the numbers you are citing include Fel Armor (which gives me an extra 100 spell damage) or not. If I am a priest, I want to know if it includes fortitude or not (1k+ health is huge).
As for spell hit rating, it seem a bit inconsistent. Some spell hit can come from talents. Shadow priests (for shadow spells), locks (for affliction spells ONLY), and arcane mages (for arcane spells) all have a talent to increase spell hit by 10%. Fire and frost mages have 3% (for fire and frost spells). Balance druids 4%. Elemental shamans have 6%.
For shadow priests, I would require, at minimum, 4% (51 rating) plus full Shadow Focus (the talent that increases spell hit). Or you could go the route of saying: 14% spell hit including gear and talents. For affliction locks, I’d say the same as shadow priests. Demon/Destro locks want a bit more, so perhaps 90 for them? I really do not know enough about them, balance druids, or elemental shamans to say.
As for mages, arcane would probably be about 3% hit from gear, and fire and frost would be higher … so 90 for them (assuming spell hit talents are taken)? Again, I do not know enough to say for sure.
Good luck
Hey mattikun, 30% dodge for druid MT’s is way high for a Beginning group going into Kara. I say more like 25%..I know with Sami I was MTing just fine at about 25ish. Also 30% dodge is extremely hard to hit, with my current set I am only at 29.5, and thats with Dawnstone Crab and Moroes, mind you I can get it up to 65%, but thats only with the use of both trinkets. If you were able to get that up to 30% with the 20k armor and 12k health….damn show me where you got them, because I completely missed things.
2 cents
-Sami
you know Matt for the Prot Pally specs you have 102 avoidance. I dont know how you are getting those numbers most pally tanks I see when i add Parry/block/dodge are around 60 percent or so. Am I not adding right?
[...] a combination of greens and blues. In June, I sported +600 healing! That number is far below my minimum recommended stats. But my friends were extremely geared and my lack of healing didn’t really hinder progress. [...]
[...] of Matticus has already put together some starting figures in the Minimum Class Stat Requirements For Karazhan post. This saves much googling for the Lords, so I’ve taken the liberty of re-summarising most of [...]
[...] will you know if you’re good enough? Refer to my Minimum Kara Requirements for classes. Alternately, I’m sure Phaelia, Karthis, and Big Bear Butt can help you get in [...]
[...] For tanks and DPS, I’m asking you for the relevant stats that are needed. Take a look at my Karazhan minimum requirements for an idea. Previous in [...]
The druid tanking looks a little over the top. Druid tanks should have at least 12k health but only around 25% total dodge. I was always taught get an average of 25% chance to dodge unbuffed in bear and then stack stamina like crazy. Feral DPS: 2.2k minimum AP, 65 hit rating, 20% (MINIMUM) crit%, helpful to stack some expertise
the shaman ones are way off,
you need a hit rating for ele
lower attack power for enhance shamans,
and less mp/5 for resto
You should specify if the 12K health for Druids is bear for or not. If it’s caster form I would say it’s too high (should probably be like 10K), if it’s Bear form I would say it’s too low (14-15K probably).
Also I think the dodge number is too high, I have been through kara 3 times now and my dodge still isn’t that high.
The PROT PALLY 102.4% avoidance numbers is totalled by adding up total miss/dodge/parry/block stats while Holy Shield is UP.
miss stats? lol
Quote:
Tank(MT):
12000 Armor, 12000 hp, 490 def., 15-30% Dodge/Parry
That means a combined dodge + parry percent of 15-30%, right? So a warrior with dodge at 11.54, parry at 11.13 (combined 22.67) is good, right?
To put the tank requirements in other terms, the tanks need to be uncrushable and uncrittable on top of all that other lovely mitigation. Is that about right?
-Dacio 70 afflock
OK. So I’ll admit that I don’t know that much about classes outside of Hunter but them I know well. The numbers that you have up there for hunters kinda overshoot the mark me thinks. I 13 epics and the rest all high end 70 blues and I don’t stack up with those numbers yet lol. The AP on hunters can be dropped by prolly about 100-200 and the crit chance down to 14%. Also hit rating can come down by half, hp and mana by 1000 each. Hunters are effective DPS almost no matter what their gear is and the hp really doesnt matter much since if they pull aggro from tank their dead in one or two shots anyways even at 10000 hp. Also BM and MM dont need that vastly different AP. Yes BM do more dps due to stronger pet and faster attack but MM is good to have along despite reduced dmg for silencing shot and such. Also i recommend MM Hunters get some points in Survival for things like improved trap and such. Almost useless in PvP but nice for CC in instances and Raids.
[...] the most popular post on this site to date is the Minimum Stats for Karazhan post, re-posted from World of Matticus, which aims to suggest minimum stats that people should be aiming for before entering Karazhan. I [...]
The warrior dps req’s are wayyyyy off. You’re never going to see 33% crit before kara unless you’re full out pvp gear.
I think 25-27ish crit is more inline for a fury warrior with 120 hit would be much more inline for starting stats.
Leave the 2h at home, Fury for raids
I found it interesting that under Paladin requirements, the Retribution spec wasn’t even MENTIONED! Please don’t ignore ret pallys for a source of dps, which can be quite good. Not to mention valuable buffs and ability to rez and DI.
Lol, Conor beat me to it by a couple of days. I have a friend who’s a Ret Pally, and I was wondering what recommendation you would have for him. Whaddayathink?
Dax
conor/Daxenos: There’s a reason why I haven’t listed Retribution Paladins yet. It’s because I don’t know :(. I’ve got my own ret pally in the works and I’m working on her to get some gear and such. I’m averaging about 390 DPS so that needs to go up much higher. I can’t offer any solid numbers yet, but see if you can shoot for 450+ DPS.
Until then, much research and referencing must continue!
I have a ret pally with PVP gear and I can easily do 500-600 DPS on a heroic boss using SoV but I cant get in on Kara to save my life because nobody is willing to give a ret pally a chance and Im too stuborn to go holy. ha
[...] items, so you don’t have to worry about the dice for most of your gear. If you look at Matt’s Kara Requirements for bear tanks: 415 def with 3/3 Survival of the Fittest, 12000 hp, 30% Dodge, 20k armor [...]
The reason why folks are talking about ret pallys, or arms warriors, or demon locks, etc. is because they are most interested in PvP or solo-ing than being with a group. Seriously.
A ret pally or arms warrior is not going to touch the DPS numbers of a similiarly geared mage, rogue, or lock. But the second part of DPS is CC. Whenever I’m looking for a group to hit heroics/raid- I look for real healer (holy priest/holy pally/resto druid), a real tank (prot warrior/prot pally/feral druid), and the rest DPS and CC. Notice the ‘and’.
If you are just a DPS, then that slot could be used for someone that does the same damage you do, plus can take a mob out of the picture. As long as there are two CC folks in the group, its great having them. Less than that, they become a liability. The healer has to then heal THREE off tanks, and that usually spells disaster.
I have a holy priest and a afflock. I picked these specs so that I can help out whatever group I’m in. And my play style has always been for whatever is best for the group. I’ll give up my big dam curse (CoA) and suffer the DPS loss- if my Malediction buffed Curse of Elements or Shadow means more DPS overall by debuffing for others. Sometimes that person picking who goes on the raid is looking at what else you bring to the party.
To Zerefin that thinks that the Fury Warrior is way off :
I have a Arms specced Warrior and he crits for 26%, and I don’t have the top +Agi items. I aim more for +Stamina and +Strenght. So the 33% crit suggested is pretty reasonnable IMO, if a you get items with +Agi.
[...] like Gnome (Best gname of the year, IMO) said in Minimum Requirements for Karazhan: The reason why folks are talking about ret pallys, or arms warriors, or demon locks, etc. is [...]
I’m just assumin that the minimum requirement set for dps warriors is talkin about arms warriors. cause 33% crit is kinda hard for a fury warrior to get unless he’s gemming for crit only and not for AP, which is a no-no. Also, less than 100 hit is not the smart thing for a fury warrior to do anyway. I’d say maybe 1.7-1.8k AP in berserker stance would be good, at least 100 hit, and 22-25% crit and you would do fine, at least 500-600 dps, this is for just startin Kara, not all epicced out or anything
Arms/fury warrior and ret pally rant part two:
So before I go into this, just want to say that I have guild buddies that are ret pally and arms warrior. So I’m trying to give a more factual reasoning as to why I seem like on bagging on you guys. Here’s what I’m learning from doing heroic PUGs on my 70 holy priest-
The problem with arms/fury warriors and ret pallys in group is simple. In a ‘perfect’ group- you have a good tank, a good healer, and three high DPS with CC. You CC everything but what you are killing, let the tank engage and get aggro, pour on the DPS, and move to the next one.
With an offtank you run into a problem. With real tanks, they take the least damage from mobs as anyone else. They are geared and talent buffed as such. If I’m just healing them, my threat from healing should never pass theirs.
But non prot warriors and pallys is an offtank form of CC that take more damage and require even more healing than the main tank. My HPS just more than doubled, which basically doubles my threat. And since non-prot warriors and pallys have less threat building tools, the mob may pull off them and seek me out. Especially if others start taking damage for whatever reason and I have to PoH or use CoH.
I learned this just leveling up in Outland long ago, from ‘tanks’ that were arms/fury warriors. It works until it doesn’t, and then I die. I’m talent buffed for 20% threat on heals, and if I can use Fade and pop a trinket and I’m still targetted- we are set to fail.
For starting kara, a pally tank doesn’t need to be 102 avoid. Its nice, but for almost everything up to curator, its not needed. 102 avoidance is IMPOSSIBLE to get with out kara loot for a paladin. I have tried. Played my pally for four months at 70 trying to get 102 avoid for kara, said screw it and went without it. I sit at 11.5k health 6.5k mana 20% block,15 parry, and 17 dodge. 13k armor. Also, to gnomeplace, In a perfect group you have a pally tank, and w/ good heals, You never need to touch a mob w/ any cc to clear it fast and easy. H shatt halls, is paladin tanks dream. One more thing. Hunter stats were a bit high. and for survival, Plan on having the same stats as a BM hunter, but w/ at LEAST 500 agu for kara. 1500 ap is a bit high, but doable.My alt is SV and is always second in damage for our kara clears.
This is gonna seem funny, but you left out moonkin tanks. The req’s are basically 10k hp, 20k armor, 500 bonus spell dmg, 220+ resil (makes the moonkin uncrittable in kara), at least 8k mana, 90+ mp5, and I haven’t come up w/ a good spell hit rating. other than that, stack stam.
Just wondering about the 90 hit for warlocks. It count for both affliction and destro? Even if Affliction locks can get 10% spell hit from talents? 12.6 hit = 1%@70.
10% spell hit is the same as 126 hit rating, personally I have 6% with talents, and 44 hit rating atm. That sums up to 120 hit rating for affliction spells, but only 44 for my shadowbolts.
I use shadowbolts if there is no other lock in the group, if there is, I use drain life(more dps if there is many affliction dots), and only use shadowbolts when nightfall procs(procs more often when I use drain life).
My question is; Is hit rating requirements equal for both afflicion and destro locks?
Thx , finnaly a website that goes listing it all; )
The Enhancement number on AP is a Bit off, I run Kara w/ 1200 AP and 25% Crit, only the fully Kara epiced Combat rogue out DPSes me (Thanx to my buffs of course
) It should probably be straight 1000 AP and 20% Crit, the melee buffs enh adds (10% AP increase in 10 yards, Agility/Winfury Totem, and Strentgh totem) usually make a huge difference in the whole melee group
This is for fury warriors, which most dps warriors are.
DPS warrior numbers are way off….Hit should be 95 minimum if you have 3/3 precision talent in the fury tree, 142 without. AP should be around 1550-1650. Crit should be 26-28%. 33 is completely unrealistic.
Rogue’s:
U should change the needed hitrating of the rogue to 142, 142 HR is needed to cap out the special (yellow ) attacks, crit id change to 22-24 range as its easy to achieve for a rogue, and gives u every 4th instead of 5th hit a crit (theoraticly). I hope this helps, greetings Aelynn (EU-Karazhan realm, u can /w me anytime if u need advise.)
elemental Shaans
I think the crit is little 2 much - Without enchants i get up to 700 spell dmg, but with crit strike rating on all my items but 2 i get hardly 19%. And no - i got no green items, only blue and 5 epic.
OK. Here’s the thing. The Dodge/Parry rating requirement for Warrior tanks is inaccurate. You need to factor in your Shield Black rating as well. The total Dodge/Parry/Shield Block should be a minimum of 45%. If not, your healer will never keep up unless they have at least +1500 bonus heals.
Also to clarify, just in case someone isn’t sure, these are UNBUFFED stats. A Warrior Tank after buffs should be around 14,000 to 15,000 health, and at least 13,000 AC
Don’t forget, tanks, there are wards for the chest and shield that absorb a lot of damage, and food buffs are a must for all party members. I use spicey crawdads which give a 30 Stamina boost. Every little bit helps.
[...] with gear, one needs good enchants and augments. There is a fairly old site that lists the needed stats to walk in the door of karazhan. Personally, I think some of the healer [...]
For Rogues The 1300 - 1400 ap and 20% crit are about right but your gonna need at least 150 hit rating rather then the 90 that has been suggested.
Nice thread Matt. My season 2-3 + fully kara gear enchancement Shammy just cracked 1250 AP. I’d say a more realistic number would be 875-950 AP 20% crit. 6.25k health (all unbuffed). +6% to hit is easy with the right talent spec.
DJ
LOL phail
rogue
1400 ap, 20% crit, 13% hit (around 210)
ya i would definitely bring up all lock dmg to 650-700, especially self-buffed. This is easily hittable with a few epics, and it really doesn’t take much at all to get it up to 600. Aff locks only technically need 80 hit as that brings us up to the cap after talents, unless you are the type that uses shadow bolt alot, in which case 90 might help. Otherwise looks pretty good as a MINIMUM.
pally tanks CAN hit uncrush/uncrit before kara…i have a gear set that proves it, and i never took a tank piece of out kara.
And I do raid kara as Ret…and typically finish either second or third in damage, depending on how hardcore the mage and warlock AOE everything.
Not QQing at anyone — just my two cents.
And for christ’s sake, let the Ret pally raid — especially Kara! Everything there screams “Smack me with your holy goodness, paladin”.
Hit is too low for warriors and AP and crit are probably a little on the high side for most of the preraid gear available, I run ~1750 AP, 150 hit and 26% crit (unbuffed) and make a fine showing (anecdotal obviously, generally 600+ dps and beating mages, sometimes locks and any rogue that isn’t full epics, spec is 17/44 fury.)
I should clarify, 96 hit rating is the minimum required for fury warriors and 142 for arms.
I’m a dps warrior, and the kara requirements for them are:
1400 AP, 95 Hit, 20% crit, your numbers are way too high for anyone at that level
This should be my most updated armory… give this a look and let me know if you have any suggestions.
http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Shattered+Hand&n=Shinguard
I will say that I have yet to enchant most of my items. I plan on mixing the remaining enchants with the glyphs plus stam/agi/AP enchants and upgrading my gems using a few blues that need to get cut.
When all is done it looks like my AP may be on the lower side, but my hit and crit will be pretty solid. Is that a good balance?
id say hit for mages is a lil high i have 35 spell hit and i am about top 3 dmg done total, and usually top 1 or 2 for DPS
Rogue
1300 - 1400 ap, 90 hit, 20% crit
As suggested by mesczante
what frikkin specc is that??
Updated my list too, and kept the credit to your orginal post. I think I was a bit easy on the pally off-tanks and forgot the warrior off-tanks.
Mages dont need spell hit for something as easy sauce as kara =X
… a paladin who knows how to play retribution, does well damage. im a retribution specced paladin, and im always high up on the damage meter, still if there is someone other at my gear lvl in the group
I didn’t see anything for Retribution spec Paladins. While I know that they’re not in demand (or even liked), I still like using one.
Since they play more or less like a combat speced rogue I assume the stats are roughly the same. On difference is that Ret Palys only need ~100 hit to max out our accuracy with a 2-hand weapon.
continuing on the ret pally discussion, i’ve run one for quite a long time, and they contribute alot to raids, especially if u spec improved judgement of the crusader, everyone attacking the enemy the judgement’s on gets a crit buff. Most of their judgements contribute much to the raid, such as healing on each hit, or mana on each hit. plus in kara, they rule at dps cause most everything in kara is either undead or demon, which we specialize in killing. the only reason i respeced to prot is because people wouldn’t stop saying that we’re worthless to raids and only good for pvp >=(
Great resource…I’m going to start vetting partymates against this page, for sure.
How come no recommendation for feral druid dps? I’ll float 2,300 AP, 28% crit and +70 hit as the price of admission. There’s a comment above recommending 20% crit, that’s way too low.
Feral druid tanking stats are fine for offtanking which is all you’d be doing upon entry anyway. Might be hard to hit 30% dodge, but it’s a good goal. 28% at least.
right now, my hp is around 10.5k unbuffed, block+parry+dodge+holy shield is around 70-85%, and armor around 11.8k…i know i can’t tank all of kara’s bosses right now, but how far can i get through the bosses until it becomes a problem?
[...] great case in point are my two posts on Karazhan and Zul’Aman requirements. if you look at the comments, you’ll see like 50+ comments [...]
Hunter AP is kinda high only rly need 1350 AP for BM and 1550 for MM ( unbuffed obviously). And u dont need that much health u should not b getting hit i started kara with 7k health and its never been a problem